Outside Erie

38 Responses to “Comment of the Week — Corporate Boards”

1. Tom
   July 18th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

   No shareholders? Who owns the company?

2. Danny Lucas
   July 18th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

   Peter clipped the comment Tom.
   Read the whole thing to make an assessment.

   However, the short answer to
   “No shareholders? Who owns the company?” is critical and easy.

   Bill Gates owned his company when he made it in his garage.
   When he issued common stock, the public was given the ability to co-own the company with Gates. However, the public is in a regulated system. Gates must comply with those regulations.

   Bill Clinton tried to break up the “public” owned Microsoft to maximize competition. Imagine THAT! Bill Gates got too good.

   The Justice Department took a rather fine running operation, and bled them through leagl system shenanigans until Gates cried “uncle”. Thereafter, the Justice Department (who won the legals) shrugged and said “just kiddin Bill”.

   I suspect Bill Gates often wished he had done without the damn shareholders.

   Google was private. then, it wasn’t.

   I could name dozens of firms that were self owned.
   But, the future of our nation requires a new way of doing business with Wall Street having a need for quarterly performance goals being met ,(OR ELSE!) and companies having a social contract with workers and the community.

   I recommend labor unions stick their heads up again, and take notice a new way. NO UNION leader should take a pay in excess of 15 times the average worker. They fattened their own wallet and then fattened their heads.
   Labor should bargain earnestly with companies to lower costs and compete globally. How?

   The same profit sharing that Wall Street loves.
   When times are good, and the company earns plenty, unions should have negotiated a share of that profit be distributable to their folks through them. (I think pricing mechanisms in the market, along with a tad less corporate greed, could factor an annual pool of wealth to be shared in the range of 12-15% gross profit……net would not work as the law has too many loopholes. lay it all on the table for management and workers to see).

   When times are tough, that all disappears but the job is more likely to be retained. Workers are now back to lower wages and less profit sharing. Hold on with productivity til the market reverses to good times. then, share profits anew.

   Why would companies do that?
   Training costs are rising.
   The public school system is a sham of protected government workers and produces kids who can not read or graduate. THIS is the fodder for our companies and it costs a fortune to train.

   Temp people are not humanely treated, even after a hire at a firm, temps are made to feel a lower, than low class. Many are not even worth a call to the Christmas party, and make half the wages of the person on the same team at work, plus…they have zero benefits.
   They need dignity as an employee, not slave-ishness as a temp.
   Wall Street lean and mean demands for quarterly induced this dreadful fear into all of our lives. It has to stop.

   One of the largest users of temps in the nation is……Microsoft.
   Amazing, eh?

   Healthcare insurance in Erie, PA should be done entirely within this community. I mean we have a whopper of an Insurance Company here.
   All residents of erie County and every firm should be under one umbrella and one company, in cooperation with our major hospitals.

   25% of the total cost of healthcare is administration.
   We wipe that out by going local and , effectively, self insure one another.
   This would apply to ALL citizens of the county. Workers, moms at home, homeless, babies, retired, anyone who is in the county is covered. Join forces with Nautilus and thr YWCA, YMCA, and fitness places to get our workers in shape and lower costs of healthcare.

   Put teens in school at night when the teen clock wakes up and can learn.

   If a large steamship is going full blast from buffalo to Cleveland and decides to turn around off Erie, it will go toward Cleveland all the way to ashtabula before turning due to inertia planted. We are in that state now economically and socially.

   Turn! Turn! Turn!

   I encourage you to think through and add here how WE can change OUR future beginning NOW and HERE.

   The comment was a wake up call to what we have become.
   Events of the week went swiftly and followup disappeared.
   Perhaps in this new spot, we can tackle building a new Erie in ways that will encompass the powers-that- be, to stop and say, “hell, we tried everything else; what do we have to lose by incorporating those Global Erie thoughts?”

   Your serve!

3. Julio C. Reyes
   July 18th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

   Tom,

   According to the link below as of 11/09/06 big (over a billion on yearly revenues) privately owned companies in PA generated over 44 Billion dollars a year. I guess they are not subject to Wall Street and the reporting requirements for companies publicly traded. But I believe they still have to have Board of Directors. This is especially thru in a “closed Corporation” where I believe you could have a limited number of share holders.

   http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/21/biz_06privates_The-Largest-Private-Companies_Rank.html

   Now, according to the States and the IRS you could have S, LLC, corporation and others. I guess when playing with companies and Boards we have to consider the size and its legal structure in an individual basis.

   As an example I have proposed before similar options to handle the Gas supply in the region by creating a Co-Op and use group buying power and get rid of National Fuel and possible Penelec if necessary. See my next post please.

   In closing, I basically agree with Danny’s post in regards of the options he described. The question is how we do it.

4. Jerry
   July 19th, 2008 at 5:45 pm

   Danny, the comment is way, way off the mark.

   Google was private–then it wasn’t. Yeah, and it was a great decision. If you want to grow your business, you must raise capital. Look, business often must make that decision to give up a little ownership in order to finance expansion. They could borrow–but against what? Eventually, that source won’t get you there–there’s only so much debt you’ll be allowed to carry. Instead, you get to sell a small portion of your ownership for maybe 10-15 times what that stake is worth, and you don’t owe the buyer anything but a duty to act in his (and, not incidentally, your own) best interests. Bud wouldn’t be Bud if the Busch family had held onto the entire company. It’d be Sam Adams. Would that have been a good decision? I’m sure Bill Gates doesn’t regret his decision to sell stock in Microsoft, and could cite billions of reasons why. Billions more than he could cite if he was still toiling away in his father’s garage.

   This investment in corporations is by far the largest driver of wealth in this country. Everyone with a 401(k) could tell you that. This nation wouldn’t enjoy the 25% of the world’s wealth (for 4.5% of the population) if we didn’t act just as we do. The type of issues you raise as being what’s wrong with this country wouldn’t be discussed, because there would be no conceivable way to afford them. We’d be lucky to have food on our plates. In any event, all the wealth that was created would be in the hands of a select few business owners. We’d be entirely at their mercy. Is this really what you advocate? I suppose, however, the next step in your process would be government takeover.

   So to try to have the world you imagine by preventing the public from investing in business, you’d instead drive us back to feudalism. I just don’t think you’ve thought this through. Emotional reactions are like that.

   The part about temps is just silly. What makes you think Microsoft wouldn’t hire temps if the company was privately held? Where’s the causation? This is all just silly.

   By the way, you want family-owned businesses to stay that way? Advocate permanent repeal of the estate tax. But then, I don’t know if that would suit this uninspired worldview of yours.

5. T Money
   July 19th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

   Lucas is way off the mark. Why is Peter promoting this garbled non-sense? The comment above accurately captures the reality of the commercial world- wan to raise capital? Gotta go public.

6. Danny Lucas
   July 19th, 2008 at 10:09 pm

   Jerry,
   You make a good case for the reality as we know it.
   Me too.
   In fact, the entire comment is in Peter’s link, and is a response to another world view above me there. (That one is right too).

   And, here is another worldview from the post AFTER my comment:
   “bojosmom
   July 15th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

   Wow! Thanks Mr. Lucas for that excellent post!”

   So Jerry, we have the world view of you, the world view of the post before me , my response, and the worldview AFTER my post saying “Kudos”.

   How can that possibly be? None of us are even close in views….
   except the wise bojosmom….

   Well, it is the simple difference of a snapshot, in a continuum, versus a movie. We are all looking at passing snapshots in an ongoing movie saga of real life.

   The mom and pop store, Bill Gates in his garage, Otto Behrend starting Hammermill, the Busch Beer business, Google, yup, thousands of spots, invariably started private. (snapshot).

   Please note in that time period, control was entirely in the hand of the owner.
   Next snapshot……in order to grow, as you wisely point out the way it is done AND the billions of reasons it is done, control is loosened and ownership shared publicly. Now, there is capital for growth.
   Great snapshot of that moment too.

   Inevitably, at some point, a Board and shareholders gain more and more control. Snap another shot.

   Pension folks, Wall Street, individual and group investors all enjoy buying stock, in the bet of continued and future growth. SNAPSHOT!
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   The Middle Class is effectively wiped off the face of America. Snapshot!

   Say, did I leave a few snapshots out of the movie from the beginning to the end? You bet. Several intervening snapshots occur from the opening of a business, until our middle class croaked from our worldview as a nation.

   One of the reasons the comment was made originally, and, I assume the reason it is continuing over the weekend, is for people to learn ALL the various snapshots that go into this picture.

   Once that is known, perhaps we can stop taking pictures that go awry and create pictures of a fundamental different outcome at the end….other than the current snapshot of erasing communities lifeblood nationwide.

   THAT outcome does NOT have to be. But, it IS occurring.

   I do believe that Milken, Boesky, Icahn, and players like that are rigging the established game of capital finance from the public, to extort an unusually large amount of stock,….read control,…..to influence an outcome that benefits only them, not necessarily the nation, or even the other stockholders.

   A one-time shot in the arm for extraordinarily high market valuation of stock (to induce a buyout) has NOTHING to do with capitalization to run a firm. It is greed.

   But once in play, the effort is a division of the parts of a company, and a summary execution of a long standing entity, to the benefit of very few.
   SNAP!

   Following the parceling out of the firm, the middle class no longer has those good paying jobs. SNAP!

   There are myriads more variables and pictures to be snapped here.
   I arranged the movie in pieces from a different perspective; nothing more. And, in the process of examining where we are going wrong in this drama, perhaps we can correect that and make the play turn out better for everyone, instead of the very priviledged few. SNAP!

   Regarding the slice of life known as temps, when we had HUMAN Resources Departments, temps were largely Kelly girls doing typing (in an era preceding todays computerization of the firm).
   I favor elimination of all temps and the firms that run them.
   It is not because of pie-in-the-sky or even wishful thinking, or even a way of life that cannot be altered.

   I favor the change because temps are a degrading way of life for any human over the long haul. Workers perform best when they are part of a company and know the value of their presence in the scheme of things. THAT is human. We are wasting our HUMAN Resources by denying this. And, we deny it so that once again, a very few benefit at the expense of the large many…..all of us.

   Temp hires are bad for an individual.
   Temp hires are bad for the company.
   Temp hires are bad for our nation.

   I appreciate YOU throwing YOUR snapshot in this puzzle Jerry.
   For if enough others throw in their own puzzle piece, and we use pieces from the same puzzle, we may just get a new picture that resembles the cover picture of a strong vital nation moving forward together economically and socially.

   I think it is worth a try.

7. Danny Lucas
   July 19th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

   “This nation wouldn’t enjoy the 25% of the world’s wealth (for 4.5% of the population) if we didn’t act just as we do. ”
   —-Jerry …..(Snap!)

   This is an illusion anymore.
   We have gone from creditor to debtor status worldwide.
   Our currency has diminishing value.
   Our assets are being sold for the world (supposedly the 75% wealth missing in Jerry’s equation for 95%+ of the world population) because our money is more and more meaningless. We can not back it up with anything.

   And, given globalization, does anyone doubt that a fundamental shift of Jerry’s numbers is going right out of our national border doors?
   We are not raising the height of the world’s boats and lifting all.
   We are jettisoning our Titanic and moving toward lifeboats.

   As for the government control issue Jerry brings into view, I am not big on government control.
   HOWEVER, I thoroughly enjoy going through an intersection with relative comfort, knowing that there is the thought of a cop somewhere out that that serves as an influential force in making the folks with the red light come to a stop, while I go through on a green.

   Some kinds of regulations protect ALL of us from getting killed daily.

   Perhaps we ought to look at which regulations protect and move us forward, and whicjh are killers to bear. (Snap)

8. George Vietze
   July 20th, 2008 at 6:30 am

   Another snapshot: We as a country are purchasing the bulk of our energy from the mid-east, helping to fund their war with us and shooting us with our own bullets. We are selling a lot of our key asetts to foreign countries. If you want perspective on the value of our dollar that the average person can relate to, the price of an ounce of gold used to be related to the cost of a good mans suit (gold is over $900 per ounce). Inflation is a function of the lowering value of the dollar world wide. What is the answer?

   Part of the answer is to switch to a new source of energy like natural gas and wind and other sources that will keep more of those energy dollars in this country. We have a huge supply of natural gas and only a tiny percentage of the world’s oil, T. Boone Pickens has a PLAN to switch to natural gas maybe it is time to take a picture of that.

   Pennsylvania is a great source of natural gas, we have a great source of water and GE Energy and other companies are into wind energy.

   Either we turn this ship around or buy that lifeboat before it is too expensive.

9. john morris
   July 20th, 2008 at 9:01 am

   George, while I strongly agree with you about our position, I think you are exagerating our natural gas reserves. I think output has been falling and a lot of our fields are very mature.

   Now, there are large areas, in the rockies we are still not allowed to go as well as the pottential offshore fields but I doubt they are going to be a panacia. also, Mexico’s production is falling rapidly and Canada’s is I think not incresing either which is why the issue of building LNG ports is now on the table.

   Since Natural gas is hard to transport accross oceans, there is also not really a global market and we are very tied to what can be found in the US, Canada and Mexico.Sadly, I don’t think there are any quick fixes.

   I think the lowest hanging fruit is conservation. Americans have a very energy intensive lifestyle and the main cause of this is sprawl and bad urban design. Since we are also broke, the simple solution is to pull back infrastructure and go back to infill development and walkable towns and communities connected by rail lines. In traditional cities, walking is a a primary form of daily transport.

   Nuclear Power could also be ramped up to play a huge role in electricity generation and might also charge battery powered vehicles.

   Wind and solar can also be big players, but I think most people are underestimating what the true environmental impact of this might be when pushed to a huge scale. Certain areas, like West Texas and parts of the great plains have insane wind potential.Also, it’s not talked about much but there are experiments with wave power which seems to me like a no brainer. If you watch the ocean, you certainly are looking at massive amounts of power.

   I do think Picken’s plan is very self serving. Shifting a high percentage of transport fuel to natural gas is dependent on us getting a lot more gas.

10. Danny Lucas
    July 20th, 2008 at 10:14 am

    The Board at Wal Mart acts on behalf of the shareholders.
    That is their job.

    Those who seek low wage employment at Wal Mart have their dreams come true. What they did not bargain for is the slave mentality that will follow them in all their days (but, it does help the shareholders).

    Managers brief newbies on how to apply for Food Stamps and how to file for Medicaid. Of course, paying a life sustaining wage would allow employees to pay for their own food and healthcare, but higher wages affect the bottom line. We now have a cross-purpose here.

    Thus, the food needs and healthcare of EMPLOYED Wal Mart people is shifted to the TAXPAYER….instead of the corporation.

    Clearly, this is a wise move for the Wal Mart Board to endorse.
    Is it just as clear an abuse of our nation? Our workers?

    The company receives corporate welfare in establishing a store anywhere.
    The company uses Chinese manufacturers for hand bags that literally beat employees there ( thanks Wal mart ) and locks them in the workplace 23 out of 24 hours. They are allowed out one hour a day
    (ref Business Week). Wal Mart denied; then admitted this was the case.

    The attitude of treatment to those workers overseas is the growing attitude toward workers in these United States.

    YOUR purchases at Wal Mart condone employees there on Food Stamps and Medicaid for YOU to have a lower price.

    You can stop this nonsense buy purchasing there no more.
    Your call,……. on whether the best interests of the nation trump the
    best interests of the shareholder.

    Aside from Wal Mart, when other businesses see that this behavior is condoned, THEY are compelled to follow suit “in the best interests of their shareholders” and the diseased way of life grows.

11. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 10:31 am

    Danny,

    I would also like to point out that while the big guys in Wall Street running the Money scam want us to believe that going public is the way to go. As I pointed out in my first post a privately own company like Mars could sell candies reaching over 20 billion a year and employing more than 40,000 people.

    But interestingly enough the fact of the matter is that according with the Labor Department Statistics, the Census Bureau and others most of the people working in the US work for smaller companies and privately owned that are not publicly trade. Talking about not just a different snaps shot but a totally different movie altogether.

    After reviewing several charts I could safely say that at least 80% but probably more of the US working population work for either small companies or are self employed. How that could be? So, I guess, I could also say that the average person does not work under a Board of Directors of a publicly traded company but it is somehow affected based on our economic policies.

    The link is for the intellectually curious.

    https://www.dol.gov/odep/pubs/business/business.htm

    Interestingly enough following their own movie script it seems that the size of the companies is not easily presented analysis purposes. I seem to remember charts in the past where you could see at glance the small business contributions to the economy but I could not find them anymore so just do your own readings.

    Jerry, in regards to the 401k, I believe they were created more than anything else as a Tax policy to encourage people in the US to have some savings for the long run. In a given point the US people were the people saving the lowest in the world. Everything was spending, spending, and spending at the individual level. Now the individuals save but the government is spending, spending, spending and spending,

    Unfortunately, when the government prints money just for fun to support their erroneous economic, moral and political and philosophical ideas it affects everybody. It is like playing monopoly with a cheater it is not fun and sooner or later the game will stops and the players walk away disappointed.

12. Danny Lucas
    July 20th, 2008 at 10:41 am

    Morris’s assessment of natural gas supplies, energy conservation, energy intensive lifestyle and Boone-boy being self-serving are a combination variance with the truth, comingled with statement of the obvious…(Like this gem: “Shifting a high percentage of transport fuel to natural gas is dependent on us getting a lot more gas.”) I mean, could that possibly be true? Oh my!

    I worked for an oil company for 3 years.
    They are not of the persuasions stated by John Morris, tho more than a tad of George Vietze would ring a bell in the hallways of Oil Central.

    There is a free market mechanism that has performed abundantly well this year. Oil went up dramatically in price; demand declined proportionally. Prices then FELL in accordance with the slackening demand. That is the marketplace.

    But again, that marketplace is now infiltrated with the Wall Street mentality of going gangbusters for greed in the corporate realm.

    Oil is being sold in the futures markets and creating a false pricing mechanism based on that game of greed in the energy sector.

    Enron had their own version of price-fixing with mark-to-market accounting and skimming profits “on paper” that had no bearing on fact or activity.

    Morris’ assessment has a minor bearing on oil, but is dead wrong on natural gas (other than the obvious…run our cars on natural gas and we will need more natural gas. Woah.)

    Nuclear, solar, and all the rest of the arguments go no where.
    Have you NOT noticed that we scream this for decades and it ain’t happening? The reason is simple. It is still cheaper to do what we do, than to do something else.

    HIGH prices in the marketplace turned things around quickly, eh?
    All of a sudden, talk of a 4 day week to reduce driving 20%
    (1 in 5 days you stay home = 20% savings, theoretically)…..this talk actually reached the level of Erie County!

    All of that change in attitude comes compliments of the marketplace.
    So does a shift in viewpoint ,of drilling off Florida. The oil is there.
    This should come as no surprise, given that we drill in the GULF, for cryin out loud.

    But with China drilling 60 miles away off Cuba — and slant drilling to suck up, USA reserves— now, it will be a matter of time til we too drill off the coast (officially).

    But change direction.
    We know locally that John Kansius is using heretofore unused methods of cancer cure. Radio waves are looking pretty slick.
    Could a radio wave in your automobile superheat water to run your cars? We ran steam locomotives at one time. Hmmm.

    Go local with this again.
    Since we all know that energy is going to be a prime factor in the lifestyle of our globe as long as man walks the planet, does it not behoove Erie, PA —- that spot by a huge pile of water —- to begin establishment of an Energy Think Tank and University with the sole purpose of being Worldwide Headquarters of Energy Policy?

    I think THAT would provide good paying jobs, a reason for youth to hang around, a growing part for Erie, PA in the global market, and benefits to wonderful for me to know.

13. Danny Lucas
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    401 K’s are not a product of Tax Policy, nor are they a function of monetary policy to shift from spending to savings.

    From World War II forward, a growing number of USA firms provided pensions at the behest of organized labor. Both the companies and labor bosses deceived workers. (not intentionally at first; but over time).

    Business granted the request of Walter Reuther (Labor kingpin) and others to provide pensions. In return, workers would not strike.
    This was no problem for business. Strikes hurt them and were to be avoided.
    Costs were passed along to the consumer because they COULD be passed along. The system worked well until there was global competition.

    Pensions were no longer a part of the equation.
    Indeed, most businesses reneged on their promise of pensions to retired workers (Railroad, Steel, Coal, Auto,etc).
    They simply stopped paying.

    The money had NOT been set aside. These were unfunded promises (Labor bosses were negligent on followup originally ,as they preferred to stuff their wallets like business does today at the top).
    This leads workers to be untrusting of labor spokesmen or business spokesmen. BOTH shafted the worker.

    When the passing along of costs gambit folded, and the pensions had no funding, they were abandoned.

    The new vogue?
    401K.
    Do it yourself cuz the big business boys were reneging big time.

    The cumulative 401K’s that resulted, are a prime source of demand for the highest yield for customers….401K people.

    401K Management firms are huge Wall Street sources for funds.
    They buy huge blocks of stock and shift their “buy” to “sell” in the blink of an eye for 1/8% more in Timbuctoo. 1/8% more adds up big time on a big block of stocks ot a given portfolio.

    Traders love this; they get fees buying and selling.
    Pension managers and 401K managers get fees too
    (even when “there is no money for you”——a practice worse than lawyers, eh?)

    And the highest yield for customers is the BIGGEST driver for quarterly performance yields that breathes down the neck of top management worldwide. “MAKE YOUR NUMBERS THAT WE ANALYSTS HAVE SAID YOU WILL MAKE….or ELSE!”

    That quartlerly performance God, that must be served, is a factor in out-sourcing, downsizing, lower quality, unsafe work conditions, environmental hazards, exploitation. empty buildings on 12th Street Erie, 12th and Powell in Millcreek, and all of Girard.

    Snap, snap, snap.

14. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:03 am

    Danny,

    You said:

    “The company receives corporate welfare in establishing a store anywhere.
    The company uses Chinese manufacturers for hand bags that literally beat employees there”

    I strongly agree with your assessment about how bad is Wal-Mart not only for the US but for the whole world. I did a post once upon a time about Wal-Mart in the goerie blogs but I could not find them anymore.

    As usual you are right about Wal-Mart. And I believe something has to be done to stop them sooner rather than later.

    I just need to remind everybody that slavery in recent times is not just exclusive of the Chinese.

    It also happens in American soil.

    http://georgemiller.house.gov/marianasupdate.html

    Recently the White house signed a Law for immigration and Labor in the islands. I hope it gets better.

15. john morris
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:13 am

    Danny,

    I’m not sure why stating a truism is bad if it needs to be said.

    “But last year, Canadian production fell for the first time since 1986. Thomas R. Driscoll, an analyst at Lehman Brothers in New York, said in a recent report that he expected a further decline of 2 percent to 4 percent for this year.

    The problem is that gas reserves in western Canada are being depleted more quickly than readily recoverable new reserves can be found. Martin King, an analyst at FirstEnergy Capital in Calgary, said, ”There’s a growing realization that there’s no good, cheap gas left.”

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE5D7103BF935A15755C0A9659C8B63

    Canadian production for now seems to be falling in spite of flat out drilling. Almost every rig out there is working but production is falling which is pretty scary.

    Now part of this is probably a fuction of the fact that this is recent investment and it’s gone into tapping existing fields. Because, of the issue of pipelines, companies drill where they can get the gas out near existing lines. Large supplies with no way to transport them are useless for now.

    T Boone implies that we have huge available supplies so this argument needs to be tested.

    Thinking that we can make a substantial dent in our energy situation without changing our lifestyle is just wishfull thinking. Everyone is looking for the easy technical fix which likely isn’t there.Technology advaces will be needed just to keep consumption near level. What we do know is that we could be consuming much less per person than we do because many other countries are doing that.

16. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Danny,

    Your description about the 401k scam is far more accurate than mine however I believe my points are still valid. How did they sell the scam to the public? Claiming tax savings and saving money for a rainy day appealing to national pride. Remember the US can not be second in anything.

    As usual after the scam starts failing and people start asking questions then they are told to read the small print because the evils are in the details exactly as you described it.

17. Danny Lucas
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:20 am

    When Jerry made this assertion above,
    “So to try to have the world you imagine by preventing the public from investing in business, you’d instead drive us back to feudalism”……

    the word feudalism caught my eye, and the first thought I had next was….Wal Mart.

    Rather than having the world “I imagined” drive us back to feudalism, the irony of ironies is that the world of Wal Mart, the world Jerry advocates is working and humming-just-fine-thank-you-very-much,
    THAT WORLD is already well on its way to the long “drive back to feudalism”

    If you are unaware of that system from days of yore, feudalism primer is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism

    Lords = business today
    Vassals = military today
    Fiefs = workers today

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.
    I was not going to get into this tangent, but I think it applies more than either Jerry or I had intended.

18. Danny Lucas
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    John,
    “There’s a growing realization that there’s no good, cheap gas left.”

    is a long way from

    There is a growing realization that there’s no, good gas left.

    Cheap is disappearing. Gas is still to be had.
    Many wells have been capped for periods at a time awaiting a rise in price.
    Last, one country does NOT a world-of-gas comprise.

    You are providing a classic fallacy of composition in stating the case of one country experience, in one location.

    The natural gas industry as a whole is poised just fine.

    In each post by Peter on topics that make or break our future, there is a tendency to restate what has been said in myriad prior posts anew, instead of breaking new ground of thought.

    One of the reasons I inverted my comment initially, was to break away from this repetitive thinking and venture into new grounds of thought.

    A common lament that the “people of the USA” have failed to move into energy efficient locales, flies in the face of reality. They live where they live and they FREELY chose to do this. Now we deal with it.

    China is the country that moves millions off agriculture to create a new city of industrialized workers. Our system works different.

    And ALL of the energy talk, is but a slim, slim factor in InBev and BUD and Corporate Boards.
    But it always morphs and remorphs and we go nowhere toward solution of the topic at hand.

19. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Danny,

    Once upon a time I heard someone say that the less manual work you do the more money you make. Why do I recommend nuclear above any other fuel to generate electricity because the atoms do all the work. Less labor, more money the concept is simple.

    All the other stuff, oil, gas, and coal, even biomass and shredded Tires require more human labor.

    The older I get the more lazy I become so again I will pick and recommend Nuclear.

    You said:

    “Could a radio wave in your automobile superheat water to run your cars? We ran steam locomotives at one time. Hmmm.”

    How much juice the hydrogen Kanzius device will require generating the microwaves. Only time will tell if that invention generates more power than the power required to make the Waves.

    Also, if I already have the electrical juice to generate the waves in the car why do I still need to use them to generate steam? Again, the argument here is how much powers is required going in first and the resulting juice after. Only time will tell the story.

20. john morris
    July 20th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    “A common lament that the “people of the USA” have failed to move into energy efficient locales, flies in the face of reality. They live where they live and they FREELY chose to do this. Now we deal with it.”

    I really try to be nice but this is pure B.S.

    If I was a developer or building owner in most cities in America and I wanted to build a mixed use complex of office, apartments and retail, I would face a massive array of regulations to stop me. I would be told to seperate all the business uses from residential. I also would almost surely be told that I had to provide a large minimum of parking spaces even if I thought my tenants and customers didn’t want them which would create dead un bankable space for me and cost me money to build expensive parking garages.Then, I would be taxed or potentialy have my land seized to expand highways and widen streets needed to fill the parking spaces, I was forced to build.

    If the results of these great plans resulted in dead space, an un interesting city and larger and larger number of people living outside the city, I would likely then be taxed to finance some “economic development” like perhaps a sports stadium with a giant parking lot or a bunch of them like Pittsburgh has. If that din’t work out, my taxes would be raised for the next scheme. Maybe there needs to be a bigger highway to get people to the sports stadium which is used a few times a year?

    After the whole place was screwed nobody lived in the city anymore, someone might say– lets burn some tires here.

    The whole mythology that what happened to cities was a product of just the free market is breaking down. The easiest way to see this is the violent opposition to any road tolling.

    So anyway, you proposal to compete with other countries that don’t live like this like Japan is to cut the work week so we can use the fuel to sustain spawl and the liestyle we’re accustomed to.

21. Danny Lucas
    July 20th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    No. Time will NOT tell the story.
    WE ….tell the story each day as we decide NOW to turn on the new generation of kids to science and make education exciting to pursue.

    A 35 year old guy is heading up GE locally. Jack Welch would be surely shocked at the approach this man will bring to business, compared to the Welch-destruction-practices of the decades past. Simonelli has been educated in a different world.
    Imagine if Simonelli is being trained to replace Immelt at some point.
    WHAT do we want Simonelli to know about Erie, PA in this tenure of his that makes him deam this town worthy as a global competitor?

    While you dicker comment on viability of energy generated, being of greater quantity than that required to produce it, in the Kansius model,
    I am speaking of Corporate Boards, and how they are playing to a tune that dimishes our nation.

    I am seeking a new direction in the way business is conducted.
    Employers generally receive the type of employees they deserve.
    GE can not get engineers they need.
    Why would anyone go into that field NOW when India is producing engineers to work at a wage that is less than a year of college cost to get an engineer degree here?

    Erica DeWolf is going solo on the Information Highway, after Penn State graduation. Take a look at her contemporaries who are pursuing a different life than corporate as we have known it.

    The methodologies of our Corporate Boards, worker treatment, and the dismal view accorded HUMAN resources, and the lack of loyalty for a job well done, preclude jumping on board that track for a lifetime.

    Throw a pebble in the middle of the pond at the Fairview Gravel Pits and you will see the ripples go outward. The pebble of disgrace in the way Bud-InBev and numerous similar deals have occurred, are now sending their waves of consequences outward.

    And sitting in boats is a rocky proposition given the magnitude of the waves. Our workers are drowning in a sea of lower wages.

22. john morris
    July 20th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    I tried to resist the temptation of engaging your pet topic but I give up.

    It’s very interesting that you brought up Fuedalism which has more than a few similarities to the kind of “stop the world” policies you seem to like.Let’s start with the wikipedia entry on Fuedalism you gave.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism

    “Feudalism, by its very nature, gave rise to a hierarchy of rank, to a predominantly static social structure in which every man knew his place, according to whom it was that he owed service and from whom it was that he received his land. In order to preserve existing relationships in perpetuity, rights of succession to land were strictly controlled by various laws, or customs, of entail. The most rigid control was provided by the custom of primogeniture, by which all property of a deceased landholder must pass intact to his eldest son.

    Every man was the vassal, or servant, of his lord. He swore homage to him, and in return the lord promised to give him protection and to see that he received justice. In theory, then, feudalism was the expression of a society in which every man was bound to every other by mutual ties of loyalty and service. In fact, feudal society was marked by a vast gulf between the very few, very rich, great landholders and the mass of the poor who worked for the profit of the nobility. (The nobility included bishops, for the Church was one of the greatest of medieval landowners.) At the bottom of the social pyramid were the agricultural laborers, or villeins, and beneath them, the peasants, or serfs”.

    Feudalism’s main characteristic was that all social relationships would remain stagnant forever,handed down by birth with no possibility of change excepting occsional new lords created by wars and accidents of birth (like a family not having a son)

    As near as I can tell, this isn’t something you seem to oppose.

    Let’s take the Busch situation. As near as I can tell, you oppose any change in the company ever, for any reason since this would be a threat to “the middle class”. and “job security”.

    Suppose, a large number of customers decided they prefered beers other than Bud, this would create a shift in demand and a need to change production to other beers or perhaps a situation in which the company had too many breweries for it’s demand. Any of these changes might create a shift in jobs, or at least temporary disruptions and reorganizations. Suppose, you were GM, and there was falling demand for your trucks and SUV’s but high demand for your small cars–this would mean a variation and need to change production.

    Obviously, I could go on and on because the world is constantly throwing changes at us that require adjustments in what was. Large storms, floods, shortages of materials, new discoveries, births, deaths.
    Capitalism did not invent change and it did not invent insecurity but by allowing the free movement of labor and capital, it was the system that worked best at adjusting to it.A promise of job security from anyone is always a lie or at least a promise that nobody can guarantee keeping.

    The inability to deal with change and move information capital and people to where they can be best be used is the core problem that has brought the collapse of all communist societies.

    I mentioned, the issue of accidents of birth which are a core issue with family controlled firms. Are you really suggesting that Busch was likely to remain a healthy viable firm under the controll of one family forever, to be lead by August Busch the 31st and so on.?Royal succession like this is always a case of Russian Roulet which leads sooner or later to a person who is not good or commited to what they are doing.

    Now let’s get back to the energy isssue which relates. Huge investments are going to be have to made in new technologies by the private sector which means lots of money has to be found and moved around from firms using outdated technologies and methods and also from mature businesses with low growth prospects. But, I suppose you oppose this because this might threaten people’s “entitlement” to a middle class lifestyle and job security.

23. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Danny,

    Just for clarification purposes.

    I am equally delighted to hear that a young person is coming to GE in Erie to work at the highest level. I am sure he is more than qualified. However, I have seen teenagers that think like a 100 year old person and vice versa. So, again only time will tell the end of the story there.

    Now, going back to the Corporate Boards, I thought with my previous posts pointing about small business employing far more people in the US I made it clear that I am not a big fan of them and as far I am concerned they are not doing their job why? Because as you said they rip off everybody the share holders, the nation and everybody in between. They also authorize insane compensation packages for executives that are not just morally wrong but also almost criminal if you ask me.

    I try to live by my principles:

    Going back to the Share holders as recently as last April everybody in Erie was excited about the GE shareholders meeting in the Erie convention Center. I believe everybody wanted to run specials in town for them. And more than one individual in this forum agree with the concept.

    I was probably the only one at Latinos Restaurant that said NO WAY. Why because I thought it was far more important for me to appreciate and respect the “locals” business that usually pay my regular prices. See, every body runs scams and then they cry wolf when somebody else does it or things do not work the way they want. Besides if they are share holders they suppose to have the damn money so they should pay full price.

    Wages around the Globe is a total different discussion that I rather discuss in another time.

24. Matt
    July 20th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Boards are suppose to have oversight and hold the head of a company or organization accountable. But all too often that just doesn’t happen. And the problems with boards extend far past the corporate and financial sectors. Let’s not forget that non-profits, colleges, and other organizations have boards too.

    Look at what happened at Mercyhurst College during the William Garvey scandal. Everyone on the Mercyhurst board was either a friend or lapdog of Garvey or someone who had extensive business ties to the college (Marlene Mosco, Owen McCormick, others). So was it any surprise when the Mercyhurst board tried to protect and cover up for Garvey?

    Garvey had stacked that board with people who he knew would not question him due to their own personal interests. In the end, only one of the board members broke from the others. The rest of them acted like the lapdogs that they were. The fact that Garvey had probably abused numerous underage boys in the 1960s and 1970s meant nothing to them.

    But what really illustrated the dysfunction of the Mercyhurst board was when they conducted their “sham” of a presidential search. When Garvey resigned, Mercyhurst assured the Erie region that it would scour the country for the best possible candidate. In return, the college was contacted by dozens of highly-qualified and very accomplished candidates from around the nation who were interested in the job.

    But when WHO did the board eventually pick as the new president?

    Thomas Gamble, a key Mercyhurst insider and a member of the same board that tried to protect and cover up for Garvey. Mercyhurst even had the gall to call Gamble the “best qualified candidate,” never mind the fact that most of the top candidates had credentials and experience that dwarfed Gamble’s.

    Few local boards in recent times have been as morally bankrupt and dysfunctional as the one at Mercyhurst College. it isn’t just the corporate sector where boards are a problem. It’s the non-profit and educational sector too.

25. George Vietze
    July 20th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    John Morris, I agree with your perception of free markets. Market and demographics change and require companies and individuals to adapt to those changes. Especially when you point out that promises of status, security and job protection if not an outright lie it certainly cannot be guaranteed. That is a sensitivie subjec in the Erie area as a great deal of people have been affected by these market changes and the pain has not left the area.

    That said, communites have their own culture, I have been trying to acertain the inside cultureof this area. I have not been here long enough to draw conclusions but I am on a full scale study and learn more and more everyday. Having been brought up in the Boston area and somewhat famiiar with part of the culture and mindset they created there own “Big Dig”, the biggest construction corruption project that I am aware, but the community accepts political corruption in the Boston area as a given and they pay dearly for that acceptance.

    Does this community want to change and move forward? I believe we have a chance to leave the past and learn from those experiences.
    This area has its networks, but every community has its own type of power structure, my feel is overall there are very deep roots of community support and a highly informed educational community, a solid business factor and the citizens of the area are ready for a better future. I don’t think change will come until the citizens and the community come together under a structured vehicle and form a community culture that will leave its imprint on the direction of the future.
    If we sit back and just watch things happen or worse yet, not happen, we all have to take responsibility for our choices.

    No one owes the Erie area anything but we have the demographics and assets to create a great community on a great lake and a great lifestyle but we are going to have to put one foot in front of the other
    and move forward.

    The Envision Erie group has been invited to post on this forum and I for one, look forward to what they have to say. If anyone has had experience working with the founders of this group Alan R. Kugler and Renee Lamis, I would welcome your comments, they seem to have experience in their field and have a broad view of working for the benefit on the entire Erie County and well as the local communities.

26. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    All,

    I guess this guy knows how to play the game according to his biography he worked in the stock exchange and the Federal Reserve Bank among others before becoming the big cheese at Freddie Mac. Now he is taking more money even thought the company lost value and we are footing the bill.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25740405/

    Good job!!!!, Board members. YOU FOOLS !!!!!

27. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

    Danny,

    We should be happy for a few minutes. It seems that one of Yahoo shareholders is following your advice and is blocking Carl Icahn and his nonsense.

    The other article talks about the crook at Freddie Mac and a couple of crooks from Bear Sterns messing around with Hedge Funds. I really hope they go to jail.

    Enjoy it just for a little bit.

    http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/saturday/business/ny-bzcuts195768820jul19,0,5438011.story

    Regards,

28. john morris
    July 20th, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    Julio,

    I think compared to what some guys got that’s a low number. Perhaps he was underpaid? Just kidding.

    kudo’s to the hedge funds that shorted this evil dog! Never has a more honest dollar been made.

    Shareholders in a deformed quasi governmental corporation have it comming. The whole game in an entity like this is one of heads we win and walk off with big profits and bonuses and tales the taxpayer loses.

29. john morris
    July 20th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    Sorry about that anti dog hatespeach. I love dogs

30. Danny Lucas
    July 20th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    Missed a day while at the beach.
    It appears there has been growth in understanding corporate boards, the private sector, and the ramifications of defining what is truly in the best interest of the shareholder.

    The “best interest” varies dramatically from short term to long term.
    In the short term, the emphasis is on greatest return (as opposed to long term upward growth for all.

    In the long term, the best interest includes social obligations (no different than the clarion call we here for hospitals to contribute to fireman expenses and the like (THAT is both against best interest (spending for social cause) and “in the best interest” at once (protect the building from fire by assuring adequate preparation.

    Morris makes a lot of summaries that are attributed to me which I have not declared. The ideas he espouses are his own, not mine. It is a writing style he prefers I guess.
    And, I was glad to see the focus maintained on the topic at hand instead of feudalism and energy.
    Those sideroot issues and observations dilute the impact of learning what is going on in our country in the economic field.

    Freddie Mac and Fannie May are a big part of this too. Peter will likely explore that as a separate post for the audience to understand what THAT will do to Erie and USA.

    I am not a screamer that middle class must be coddled. I am an advocate that it IS NOT NECESSARY to eradicate the middle class to accomplish the needs of Corporate America. Moreover, the extinction of spendable income will lead to an ever increasing reduction of spending (other than debt…which has a predefined limit).

    A healthy wage is in the realm of all corporations to provide.
    Labor has to do their part and make the company productive and profitable. A compromise would be beneficial from both sides.

    Make the employees partial or multiple shareholders as an inducement to make the company prosper. That is precisely the inducement for management and they get it whether there is prosperity or not. (Nardelli comes to mind).

    It will begin with a redefinition of dignity for people. We have allowed that to evaporate and the pendulum must swing back.
    If people are viewed as no longer an asset, but a means of production to be exploited, NO CHANGE will occur.

    I have yet to hear about or read the Yahoo news, but it is a good sign to recognise that Yahoo company is fish food in the marketplace and needs protection.
    We did that locally for Hammermill by finding a white knight to protect Hammermill from Icahn. The name of the Knight? International Paper.
    That was the deathknell of the company named Hammermill and in the end, Icahn got the breakup of the parts to make them more valuable than the whole.
    The community of Erie, Pa has suffered the consequences since.

    One more item has been on my mind on this today.
    The charge goes out on emotional views, and it is accompanied by a summary dismissal of the views. I have pondered the veracity of that.
    Should the views be bean counters and the numbers and facts alone?

    We have done that.
    It yields no discernable change in our economic life and flow.

    I recall Martin Luther King doing zero politics at getting bills passed on civil rights. He did zero in the fact realm. But the “I Have A Dream” speech was as emotional as it gets. THAT, coupled with a silent resistance to the unfair status quo, led to massive change in civil wrongs becoming civil rights.

    Well, I am hardly Martin Luther King, but having watched long term customers (I have known decades) personally lay their head into their hands and cry at the loss of a life on closing of the p[ant day, I suspect I have learned the value of speaking in an emotional breath. I have been listening to those emotions for decades and they need a louder voice.

31. Danny Lucas
    July 21st, 2008 at 9:49 am

    Legg Mason Capital Management Inc. is a wealth management outfit and global asset mutual fund investment outfit.
    They handle $950,000,000,000.00 in assets.
    I write that all out for magnitude; it is $950 BILLION dollars of global influence.

    They are held accountable for performance and yields to their customers (and Board).

    Stability has been their game over time. Ray Mason has led the firm for 38 years. You don’t see that too much anymore.
    But, as Heart Attack Jack (Grazier) used to say, we all leave the planet some day….usually by death. (HAJ wrote on specific ways to go; heart attacks).

    Mr. Mason is still ticking like a Timex watch, but not at Legg Mason anymore. In January of this year, 2008, Mark Fetting was named President and CEO of Legg Mason.
    You read right. They only have a Legg to stand on; Mason is out.

    Legg Mason says this about the new boss:
    “Mark combines the best qualities of an insider with the best qualities of an outsider”.

    Well, that sure makes me feel good. How bout you?

    The Google - Yahoo - Microsoft saga has been ongoing for some time.
    In essence, Google is tromping the Search Engine business, just as Microsoft did in THEIR niche.

    Yahoo came along and built a nifty Search Engine product and served as a competitor to Google. Microsoft has NEVER been in the Search Engine game. Rather than develop their own quality product, Microsoft intends on purchasing one with all the wealth they have accumulated.
    Microsoft wants to buy Yahoo.

    Yahoo has a dilemma. They like being Yahoo and there is a shark in the waters pursuing them. Moreover, they just can NOT get the job done at growing bigger than Google. Google is great.

    Microsoft woos Yahoo saying “let us tinker with your platform and TOGETHER, we can take on Google.
    (Note how much easier that is for Microsoft rather than starting from scratch.)
    Also, search engine cookies pretty much tell a corporation everything there is to know about anyone on the planet. This is valuable data that has yet to yield all that it can.

    Sidebar —when you shop for groceries, you hand in a card for discounts at the store. Why? The store is doing inventory control at the checkout counter. Each product sold becomes an automatic order for replacement as it goes out the door. That tells the grocer what is selling and how much product. but, it does not tell INDIVIDUAL preferences.
    The grocery card for discounted price links those products you buy to YOU. Now, the circle of information is complete. Advertising in the future can be specifically directed to you. Say you buy organic stuff. You will soon be pitched organic stuff. For a few dollars of savings, you give up all your privacy on your purchace choices. The card has nothing to do with inventory control, and EVERTHING to do with YOU.

    The danger is the links to everywhere else.
    You eat chips and dip until your eyeballs are made up of the stuff.
    That information is in a computer along with your medical records along with your credit report and your insurance rates that just happen to be linked to your credit report.
    THEY say that people who do not pay bills on time are likely medical risks and bad drivers. YOUR rates then go up.
    Can you spell L-U-D-I-C-R-O-U-S?
    End didebar.

    Search Engines do all of this faster than a grocery card and more comprehensive. Whether you are banking online, reading left wing or right wing readings or blogs, what you write anywhere, view porn?, whatever you do, BAM, there is a record in the search engine.

    And if you think they can not tell precisely who is looking at what, imagine that each time there is a global virus and two days later they arrest an 18 year old kid in the Phillipines. Contemplate how they do that for a moment.

    Back to Yahoo…….
    I like them. They even hired a local Erie gal for a while! Maria Sansone of Erie, PA ran The 9 daily for Yahoo, an eclectic gallery of 9 daily observations from Maria, that stopped work in this nation daily for a few minutes each morning.
    Pepsi joined into this mass market of viewers by adding a “TEN”, the Pepsi Ten, thereby altering the “9″ and making megadollars in the process.
    Yahoo was good to an Erie gal. Kudos for that.

    But they remain a small player in the Search Engine business.
    They are good; not great.

    Microsoft was busy making money gouging folks with incessant bad software and upgrades. I think Vista is a Latin word meaning “portal to hell” but that is another day’s comment.

    Microsoft has never been in the search engine market to any successful degree. They need to know this minutia as much as Google, your government, your banker, your grocer, your insurance company, and your spouse and dates need to know all about you.

    Here is the crux.
    We have three Boards, nay four.
    Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, and Legg Mason.
    All are players in the decision to eliminate Yahoo from the face of the Earth and let Tiny be swallowed by Big as surely as PacMan went around the screen swallowing packets of gobble stuff..

    There are even MORE Boards looking in and playing in this particular hand dealt. But these are the biggie Boards.

    EACH Board is required to represent ITS shareholders best.
    THAT is a conflict of interest built into the system right there.

    And which Board will be looking out for competition? Does not competition help all of us by making a check on growing prices and offering more market choice? In theory it does. But the public does not have a Board. Well, maybe one Board for them…..Government.

    Mega deals like this require Government approval to deem if competition remains after Big swallows Tiny each time.

    But ask yourself…..is our government monitoring successfully or is it being purchased as surely as Yahoo is being purchased or BUD WAS purchased? Is it easier to make a mega contribution to a political party or candidate or both, than develop a search engine? Or make a brewerie?

    Is anybody looking out for the public? For workers?
    Your call, but try not to bet the house on it.

    New leadership is in at Legg Mason. 38 years of steady as she goes has a new voice. THAT voice, Mark Fetting, had to take a few months and get his grip on the steering wheel at Legg Mason.

    I bet Carl Icahn did not plan on that.
    And, I bet somewhere in the background of investment world 101, Carl has probably stepped on toes to accomplish his scorched Earth policies. I wonder if the toes he stepped on are now saying “OUCH” out loud at this Yahoo gathering coming up on August 1, 2008.

    Dear Mark Fetting,
    I do not know why you are stepping up to bat as a pinch hitter at the bottom of the 9th in the Yahoo-Microsoft World Series.
    But, I hope you hit a home run on behalf of the fans.

    I know that fans don’t matter much anymore. You have to satify the owner or he fires you and gets a new player. But the bat is in your hand, and ironically, only the Board can fire you. Swing away on behalf of the United States for a change. Keep some competition in the marketplace. Thanks a lot!

    Best regards,
    Danny Lucas

    In this blurb of Peter’s on Corporate Boards, it behooves everyone to reexamine InBev-Bud, and watch the ongoing NOW Microsoft-Icahn-Yahoo-Legg Mason saga unfold. You will learn why we are in trouble as a nation, and, the best of observers will see ways that we can begin to restructure this system to work for all of us anew.

32. Danny Lucas
    July 21st, 2008 at 10:31 am

    Carl Icahn at play! Today.

    Read this and see how this single person has usurped company after company. Yahoo is a survivor of the guerilla warfare this fella plays.

    I could not have said this unfolding better myself.
    I would love to hear comment from anything learned by anyone in this article (online now) and what goes on in corporate boards.

    http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/15/the-view-from-where-jerry-yang-sits/

33. Danny Lucas
    July 21st, 2008 at 11:11 am

    “How Hammermill Died” by Carl Icahn.

    The following ongoing epic battle sums up everything discussed in the InBev– Bud dilemma, and reflects the death of Hammermill in Erie too.

    Two Comments (from the link above at dealbooks) stand out at opposite extremes in the theatre of war known as our economy.

    4.July 15th,
    2008
    12:59 pm Bravo Mr. Yang! “Fox” is a civil discription of this *!#@&^, aka, Carl Ichan. As an ex TWA employee who had to experience the fallout in 1986 from the greedy sociopathic personality of this man; my advise is to never let him near you board!

    — Posted by joyce jackson
    5.July 16th,
    2008
    6:35 am The Yahoo board and management are fundamentally entrenched, and therefore missed the basis lesson in corporate governance that the shareholders come first.

    Regardless of Microsoft and Icahn, one has to ask the esteemed Yahoo management and board how the Company got itself in this position in the first place???? We all know the answer….terrible performance.

    So, what’s happening here is that Yahoo is struggling to cast blame on anyone else but the culprits that caused the problem in the first place (Yahoo management and its board). If Yahoo performed, there would be no issue here.

    In short, it’s all about performance. I suggest that Mr. Yang check is billionaire ego at the door, and move on. Perhaps Google has a job for him to create extra value there????

    — Posted by Former Yahoo shareholder

    Joyce Jackson lost her job and her employer lost their business as it was dismembered by Icahn. She seems an eloquent speaker of the disenchanted with decline in the middle class.

    Now look at the comment from Yahoo Shareholder:
    “shareholders come first……POOR PERFORMANCE is the real issue”

    Wow. Are these two worlds apart?
    Yup. One is rich and rising; the other had a career collapse through no fault of her own.

    Have you ever flushed a toilet?
    Did you ever have something in your hand at the time and it slipped and went down….along with everything else?
    Did you stand there helplessly watching that fast swirl of activity devour what was once in your possession?

    After the flush, the waters rise.
    During the flush, all hell is breaking loose in the choppy waters.

    The stock market is like that.
    Poor performance is in reality a function of the entire market in decline for outside reasons (miserable dollar valuation, energy problems, inflation, political change in the USA taking a whole year with a lame duck in charge—-probably a good thing).

    So along comes Icahn screaming Poor Performance as Yahoo Shareholder states and applauds. THAT claim is always his calling card. Of course, his voice would have no merit except for one thing. Prior to yelling poor performance, Mr. Icahn has been out there buying up all the stock he can grab on the market, to increase the volume of his voice.

    Crux for crooks…..

    WHY would you buy stock in a company that is performing poorly?
    Read that again!

    WHY WOULD YOU BUY STOCK IN A COMPANY THAT IS PERFORMING POORLY?

    But Carl Icahn ALWAYS buys those stocks and they are always available in a bear market (even vaunted GE did a stock trip up in the first quarter of 2008).

    Most folks invest their money in companies that do well. They want a return on that. Icahn intentionally seeks out firms that have had stock decline (THEY ALL DO at some time). His intent is clear. Dismember the company and sell it for the parts.

    If you are in the middle class, this vulture will eat you alive at some time in the future.

    The story is live now, so here is another link on the battle in process.
    Evaluate it from where YOU stand and ask what we can do to protect our country and community from this behavior.

    Afterall, Hammermill no longer makes the profits they ALWAYS made, because this guy screamed “poor performance” .

    He did this AFTER purchasing stock in a company he deemed performing poorly enough to BUY their stock and dismember them.

    This story is going on right now. Here is more:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080721/ts_nm/yahoo_icahn_dc

    Icahn is now going ON the Board at Yahoo.

    Do you believe that this Board will now look out for shareholders?
    Or Icahn?

34. john morris
    July 21st, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    Meant to do a long comment on here, but I haven’t had the time to fully gather my thoughts.

    “One more item has been on my mind on this today.
    The charge goes out on emotional views, and it is accompanied by a summary dismissal of the views. I have pondered the veracity of that.
    Should the views be bean counters and the numbers and facts alone?”

    I think I will try to tell people were I am coming from because this issue is a fundamental one. All opinions are based on basic views of life, reality, perception and right and wrong, even though most people aren’t consciously aware of it. My point of view is the opposite of yours– nothing, ever can come above facts and no good can ever come, in the long term from denying facts or placing emotional impulses above them.

    Now, I want to define that. I will confess that I am an atheist– so I really am not going to try to deal with religious other worldly rewards that might come from faith.

    On Earth, in this world acting on faith and denying reality in anyway never works out well. I think most people sort of grasp this which is why most people take their kids to doctors, who studied the known facts of medicine and rely on scientific observation when treating patients and assume that the engineers who build their buildings and bridges act by the same methods.

    But, somehow when one steps into the public realm of business, trade, politics and other human relations, this goes out the window and emotional feelings take control. But the effects of denying reality are no different on a large scale than on a small one– the only change is that it’s harder to spot the effects at first and the consequences are much greater.

    If a company, that has products that aren’t selling at a profit but it keeps its plants open because of the pain caused by closing them, it’s just putting off the larger pain that will be caused by their bankruptcy. Same with the bank that lends to the company– how much pain will there be when the company defaults on its loans. This runs all the way up the chain. The government can’t change these facts either. It might step in to “back the loans” to shaky companies but if it does that enough, it will have to pay the piper. This of course is what is happening with Fannie and Freddie. It’s also what happened with many, many corporate pension plans where companies took the easy path of making employees feel better by promising benefits they were unlikely to be able to deliver on.

    One really could say that this chain of evasion is the root cause of why the Federal government alone has liabilities well north of 50 trillion dollars.

    Every time a politician says we are building a road, stadium or any other project without figuring out the cost of maintaining the structure– they are making a certain number of people feel good now while pushing the reckoning into the future.

35. Danny Lucas
    July 21st, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    “If a company, that has products that aren’t selling at a profit but it keeps its plants open because of the pain caused by closing them, it’s just putting off the larger pain that will be caused by their bankruptcy”
    —-John Morris

    This is an undeniable fact.
    It can be stated emotionally or unemotionally.

    It also has no correlation with Hammermill in Erie, PA being shut down.
    The firm was always profitable.
    BUD was profitable.
    Yahoo is profitable.

    The market used to shut down nonprofitable operations with no problem. Today, the market is adept at shutting down profitable operations. Reason? The sum of the parts is worth more NOW to a hijacker passing through.

    The middle class is more often being punished with the ending of their company AFTER performing wonderfully at their job. They did all that was asked of them. The plant was abruptly closed as a result.

    Joyce Jackson comments above on her company, TWA going kaput through Icahn shenanigans. Communities are littered with the playthings of Icahn strewn about their town.

    As far as emotional views accomplishing anything, I have already pointed out that it was solely emotional views of Martin Luther King that changed civil wrongs to civil rights in his day.

    KEEP folks in Erie are incredibly emotional, and effective at marshalling others to their view.

    And, since logic, markets, bean counters, business grads and the like have had no impact in stemming the decline of the middle class in the USA, perhaps some spokepersons with emotional views will have an impact instead.

36. Danny Lucas
    July 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 am

    Hewlett Packard has a Board.
    E - I - E - I - O.
    That Board did watch their CEO.
    E - I - E - I - O.
    With debt over here; rewards piled there
    Carly Fiorina raked it in without care.

    Boards. Boards. Boards. Gotta love ‘em.

    Here is two paragraphs from the NYT today.
    The highlights?

    As CEO, Carly managed stock decline of 50%.
    She missed earnings projections - by 23% in one quarter.
    (which minor missings caused all hell to break loose for Jeff Immelt the first quarter of 2008 at GE as Wall Street went ape).

    The Board paid her $42 million to leave (fired, downsize, retrenched, jettisoned, call it what pleases you most).

    SHAREHOLDERS did not know what was going on. They made a lawsuit to find out. (I guess the board was not looking out for them, so they turned to LAWYERS….yikes). The lawsuit exposed the Board generosity at miserable performance.

    ANY lower level employee would have been booted in a week at a similar job performance. (pink slip, corporate outsource).

    Carly Fiorina now advises John McCain on “How to Run an Economy”.
    McCain admits he has no clue on economic matters. (true).
    Carly is positioning herself to be McCain Vice Presidential choice.

    Here is the NYT paragraphs I cite:

    “Ms. Fiorina, the ubiquitous new public face of McCain economic policy, adds nothing to the mix beyond her incessant display of corporate jargon, from “trend lines” to “start-ups.”
    Before she was fired at Hewlett-Packard, its stock had declined 50 percent during her five-plus years in charge.
    She missed earning projections — by 23 percent in one quarter — much as she now misrepresents both the Obama and McCain records. This month she said Mr. McCain wanted to require insurance plans to cover birth control medications along with Viagra, when in fact he had voted against it.

    Ms. Fiorina received a $42 million payout (half in cash) from H.P., according to a shareholders’ subsequent lawsuit. With this inspiring résumé, she now aspires to be Mr. McCain’s running mate. So does the irrepressible Mitt Romney, who actually was a business whiz before serving as Massachusetts’s governor. Beltway wisdom has it that the addition of such a corporate star will remedy Mr. McCain’s fiscal flatulence.”

    Here is the story:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/20/opinion/20rich.html?em&ex=1216872000&en=dc7328b604bad2e0&ei=5087%0A

    We have many issues this election.
    War - you can’t run or win one without a good economy

    Education - policies determine your economic future

    Energy - the economy and energy are inextricably linked

    Healthcare - our economy is one of few in the industrialized world to fail healthcare for all

    Economy. Economy. Economy.
    There is NO other issue this year.
    Everything depends on what we do with Economy.

    To date, Boards are frittering it away.

    Just ask a shareholder at Hewlett Packard.
    OR, get a true picture by asking a former employee OTHER than Carly Fiorina.

    Or ask John McCain.
    Carly is not his advisor. She is his TOP advisor.

37. Danny Lucas
    July 22nd, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    Wachovia Board and You 101

    A Freshman course offered to those new at observing Wall Street behavior and insider thinking.

    Course is available M-T-W-T-F
    (9am til 3 pm, cept Wed til noon and Fri til 7 pm)

    Course objective: The student will learn banking idiocyncracies and formulate plans to fee customers to death.
    Extra credit in this course is automatic for any student adept at bluffing Wall Street Analysts, figuring out what Boards represent –shareholders, customers, CEO’s, the USA, NBA finalists

    Todays lesson begins in the news.

    Students are instructed to join these two sentences from an actual story this day:

    1)CHARLOTTE, N.C. - Wachovia Corp. reported a surprisingly large second-quarter loss Tuesday, deflating Wall Street’s hopes that the nation’s big banks are weathering the credit crisis well. The bank said it lost $8.86 billion, is slashing its dividend and eliminating 10,750 positions after losses tied to mortgages soared.

    (Join this please)

    2) the results substantially missed analysts’ estimates.

    But by the afternoon its stock joined a modest Wall Street rally and rose as much as 13 percent

    Tomorrows lesson: Students are required to determine how many billions the CEO should receive as pay increase.

    Full story of 7/22/08 here:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080722/ap_on_bi_ge/earns_wachovia;_ylt=AtUA3yTO0gInEe3FpiB3Ik8DW7oF

38. Julio C. Reyes
    July 23rd, 2008 at 12:19 am

    Danny,

    In case that somebody still questions all the discussions about Wall Street, investors and Boards you could heard and see (it has a transcipt) Bush opinion about them.

    http://politicalblog.abc13.com/