Outside Erie

50 Responses to “Lacking the Will to Succeed?”

1. john morris
   July 16th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

   Yes, from my limited experience it’s pretty true. i see a bit of energy here among young people and mostly among other people without power. But the higher you go up the food chain, the more brain dead it gets. It seems to be a combination of actual laziness, and much more importantly intelectual laziness. There’s almost know knowledge transfer from one area in the region to the next, almost no media connections, beyond those attatched to sports rivalries, and a tremendously negative reaction to immigrants or foriegn investment.

   “In both the public and private sectors, what one witnesses in Ohio are the most senior employees clinging to what’s left of the economy, fending off change, demanding ever more burdensome contracts and costlier benefits. The ship is slowly sinking, but as the more agile passengers and crew take to the lifeboats and sail off, those who remain on board climb to the upper decks, determined to grab whatever plunder they can, confident that the rising waters won’t reach them.”

   I really remember when a lot of NY’s culture seemed like that but there, the vacume left behind was filled by immigrants many of whom just came in and broke the established rules.

   The things happening in Youngstown, for instance in terms of shrinking back the city to economically sustainable areas seems pretty self evident and it seems like it’s starting to work. So, of course nobody else in the region is paying attention– it’s a new idea, and one that might endanger their power base of bloated government spending. They just want it to go away.

   Cleveland, by all estimates is losing population at a rapid clip. So what does the city government do– they try to deny the census estimates which might be generous?

   Immigration policy, might be one of biggest areas of stupidity. I think the estimates are that immigrants account for something like 25% of all business startups in the country and something like 45-50% of all high tech startups. So of course, the region is mostly known for anti immigrant policies and talk.

2. john morris
   July 16th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

   Ooops, here’s the editorial that quote comes from.

   http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121460691372812085.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

3. Jim
   July 16th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

   I’d have to agree with both statements. Especially the first one. We have absolutely no problem finding things to oppose, but other than public spending on quality of life issues, we can find little of anything, and nothing of value, to support.

   I remember talking with a former congressman who told me that it wasn’t what you could pass that mattered, but power came in what you could defeat. That was probably thirty years ago, and I’ve often thought of that statement, as I’ve watched Erie over the years. He was right, power is in what you can stop, not in what you can produce. KEEP is simply the latest manifestation. I remember the original attempts to redevelop both the Boston Store and the Koehler property being stopped by preservationists, wanting the properties designated historical sites, limiting the scope of possible development, on property they didn’t own.
   One project (Boston Store) did finally proceed, years later with a different developer, but at least so far never has achieved the potential outlined in the original development plan. The other (Koehler) was passed from one developer to another by the city, sucked up a lot of tax dollars and died. I often wonder what would have happened if the original developers of both properties did not lose their momentum due to the preservationists obstructionism. And how many city council reputations were made on pandering to this kind of obstructionism. Cappy has made a career out of it, just as Bags did. City council can always be counted upon to have just enough information to be a problem, but never enough information to make a decision.

   Yes, I think the two comments are right on the money.

4. Dale Hannah
   July 16th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

   I don’t necessarily think that the general population has no will to succeed, but rather has not had access to the information needed in order to orchestrate a movement for change. This is due in the most part to the ‘good ol’ boy’ network that has held the cities back for so long that people have just given up hope.

   This is the area that blogging can redefine, by breaking down the doors to the back room, and educating the public to the detrimental forces operating there for their own benefit and agenda.

   Not being bound by the greed of commercial enterprise which dictates what is reported in the mass media, we are able to shine light into some of the dark corners without fear of repercussion for lighting up the wrong faces.

5. Julio C. Reyes
   July 16th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

   Peter,

   Some of our pseudo leaders not only do not read and do not travel outside they do not even take a shower and they blame the weather for crying out loud.

   Seriously speaking the article is accurate. I have posted in the past concepts about our experts, pseudo leaders, politicians, Metropolitan, Cosmopolitan and Jobs.

   Now, just look around who are the prime companies doing very well in Erie. The answer is for the most part companies which executives and owners travel abroad and hire people from all over the world and other parts in the US besides local talent: GE, Eriez Magnetics, Lord, Colleges, Hospitals and Logistics Plus to name a few.

   In Erie we have an additional problem. It is not that the “Old Timers” just want to hang around to their old bad habits. It is also, that they use public money trying to work with projects to bring people back. These projects unfortunately compete with private business thus creating a vicious circle.

   Jim,

   Both projects you are referring to in your post qualify as the poster child of what I say below. They are pushed with my tax money and it is wrong!

   I said many times we need to create jobs and then everything will follow. Who generate jobs, as the article says and I believe John Elliot (Redevelopment Authority) said before? The answer is entrepreneurs.

   Traditionally all big corporations had started small much likely in a garage, kitchen or bedroom. It will take years for a small company or idea to flourish. Thinking that we could attract a fortune 500 company or any other good size company to Erie out of the blue is not only ridiculous it is stupid.

   Now, I just want to use these silly examples to make my point clear.

   Let’s say that a privately owned place like Red-Hot, New York Deli and even Aroma’s cafe (now out business) had the potential to become the next Starbucks’ chain around the world. They do not even have a chance to compete why. Because the people running the future cafeteria in the Boston Store, the convention center, or the stadium have a huge advantage with my tax dollars subsidy.

   Your silly remark and your rhetoric about KEEP and the infamous Tire Burning Plant. The people attempting to build the Tire Burning Plant are using my Tax dollars to do it. Did it ever occur to you that somebody might have already trying to work a plan to recycle Used Tires in that area and by now that project is gone. You have no clue but instead you go back to sponsor crony capitalism while at the same time you are bitching about the locals because they do not want to sponsor projects you like.

6. john morris
   July 16th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

   Dale,

   I do think blogs and other new media links can be very important.

   I’m also coming around to the idea that coming up with a community plan like Youngstown is doing is a good idea.

   You, see in a place like NY or probably LA and big places like that there are always lots of new forces and people coming in to upset th entrenched power structure. My experience in NY was that almost everything seriously positive going on started without official city approval. Almost all the industrial neighborhoods transitioned to residential and other zoning illegally. Mostly the city contributed negative stuff like housing projects, highways that divided neighborhoods like the Cross Bronx and The BQE; antiquated zoning laws that held back organic development and goofy crap like rent control. But, in the case of NY, there was almost always enough growth and energy to attract new people and create organic change. A lot of what the city is doing now is just legally blessing what has been established on the ground.

   I think in a place with slow growth, there might be a lot to be said for getting together and at least having a general idea of the kind of growth and development people want and seems to make sense.

   I’m not talking about a straight-jacket type plan, but a general map that says we think this is high density, mixed use and traffic and transit projections. It might help create some kind of ground rules.

7. Jim
   July 16th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

   Julio, as is becoming usual you missed the point. I don’t mind tax dollars being used, IF the end result is a viable project that adds to the tax rolls, and provides meaningful employment opportunities for Erieites to add to the city coffers via wage taxes. While others may disagree, I define meaningful employment as full time, with a family sustaining wage and a benefits package that includes health care.

   I make a difference between the energy plant proposal and your example in franchising, because by my definition of meaningful employment the two are no where near the same, nor do they provide the same impact potential for increasing the tax base or revenue to city coffers.

   This town really needs to stop objecting to economic proposals that could put money in their pockets. To spend money to make money is what I call an investment. To spend money and realize no return I call waste.

   City council will support a developer in the initial stages of putting a project together, and in some instances commit public resources, then turn around and pander to interest groups attempting to invalidate the initial investment. Council’s pandering to KEEP is an illustration of that.
   Wanting to have it both ways actually harms the economy worse than doing nothing at all. It sends a message to qualified developers that this is not a place to attempt to partner with political leaders who can be trusted.

   Interesting that VW just decided to resume manufacturing in the US, and Pennsylvania where their last manufacturing attempt was located, didn’t make the consideration list this time.

   Growth potential IS out there. We (Erie and the state of Pennsylvania) just don’t know how to attract it. A couple of the reasons why can be found in the initial thread post.
   What I object to is the use of tax dollars promoting projects of questionable or no real economic value, and then using more tax dollars to assist in the obstruction of the very same project, as we have witnessed over and over.

8. MGR
   July 16th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

   Greed in commercial enterprises is fine, in fact it is not a bad motivator. The relatively low pay and performance often typical in non-profits shows this to be true - not that they aren’t providing value, but contradicting capitalism is swimming upstream. What we have a problem with is non-value adding quasi-political hacks and politicians trying to make their living on the coattails of people who actually make things happen. Those who can’t do, teach, those who can’t do or teach go into politics or at least hover around it.

9. Julio C. Reyes
   July 16th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

   Jim,

   You could write anything you want. Unfortunately the evils are in the details. Of course I object to use my tax dollars any time. I clearly said, my examples were silly but just in case you missed my point.

   Below is the link for one of my silly examples.

   http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/overview.asp

   Starbucks is a publicly traded company. Do you even have a clue of a company like this will do to Erie in the case their headquarters are there.

   But anyway I should know better because according to you the Tire Burning Plant proposal did not have any problems. But once I wrote in a post all the errors I found in that document of course you went silent.

   I will take Erie’s Coffee Headquarters (we could even called Erie’s Rusted Coffee instead of Erie’s Roasted Coffee) any time and day over any Tire Burning Plant.

10. Julio C. Reyes
    July 16th, 2008 at 3:57 pm

    Jim,

    In case you still do not know SIZE does matter and just in case somebody missed the news about VW. No it will not be in PA not even in your wildest dreams.

    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3487003,00.html

    The place seems to be Tennessee.

    My personal theory about this decision is that size does matter. The US people, it seems to me, that in the future they will finally accept smaller cars all because the OIL prices nothing else.

11. john morris
    July 16th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    I liked this comment a lot and I think it applies to almost all the cities in the region– even ones that show a little growth.

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/cleveland_leads_big_cities_in.html#1193881

    “The fix!

    1) Stop dismissing the fact that our population is leaving AND not returning to the levels of yesteryear;

    2) Stabilize with spot investment in desirable areas;

    3) Stop trying to “fix” every neighborhood and corner;

    4) Move folks to “populated” and focus areas;

    5) Bulldoze “vacant” areas in LARGE tracts & turn off services;

    6) Get rid of 75% of the CDCs

    7) Reduce council

    This creates:
    1) open space and/or desirable development areas;
    2) relieves public safety forces
    3) focus funding to build stronger neighborhoods
    4) focus mass transit”

    This is a general recipe most cities in the region could follow. One has to realise that most of them developed in a very specific time and often have an overload of housing types that doesn’t match demand. Small mill houses crowded near brownfields or working heavy industry for example, do not apeal to too many people and miles of cookie cutter single family homes in low densityurban areas without transit also are in serious oversupply.

    The general inability to come to grips with these realities means that most cities are squandering scarce resources on trying to revive every area just like it once was. Pittsburgh, for example spends a lot of it’s resources patroling, sparsly populated hilltop communities and places like Homewood while easily accessible areas like the North Side, The Strip, Downtown and The Hill District which are likely the cities future lack investment and good services.

12. Ian
    July 16th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    anyone want to guess the political party in control of most of these cities? Anyone? Beuller?

13. George Vietze
    July 16th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

    When I moved to the Erie area, over a year and a half now, it has been quite a learning experience. I moved to the country just 15-20 minutes from the Casino/Race Track and Peach Street. I enjoy the country life but want to access the convenience of the city when required. To live the same life-style in San Diego with a minimum of four acres with access to the city in 15-20 minutes, the lots start at one million dollars.
    I purchased 200 acres for less than I would pay for a small condo in San Diego.

    I immediately recognized that the economic viability of Erie and Erie County would add to the stability of the value in the area.

    Recognizing that the area for some reason was vastly undermarketed , I tried to compile the resources, for a marketing package that the represenatives of the area could effectively market.

    Obviously our Bayfront is one of the most valuable resources and assets that this area has to offer but I was unable to find a copy of any plan to develop the Bayfront. I feel sure there must be a plan somewhere that the Bayfront Authority uses for their purposes but I have yet to find out what that purpose is or who the Bayfont Authority is responsible to. I later discovered that the CIty of Erie had an outdated land use plan dated in 2002 and has not been updated and no one knows of any plan to update the plan. I was told that the City re-acts to requests but is not pro-active in planning the City.

    For my part, living in the country with lots over ten acres which qualify for Clean and Green status, for example, the real estate taxes on the land is approximately $175.00 per year on about 16 acres. If a house is built the 2-3 acre house pad would be valued around $15,000-20,000
    and the total real estate taxes are minimal. Natural gas is available,
    DSL is now available this month, and the land is valued between $3K-5K per acre (min. of 14 acres) and compared to California that is very inexpensive. If nothing else happens in the Erie area there is plenty to do for a great lifestyle, I just thought that maybe someone else cared about planning for the growth that is coming our way.

    The closest thing I have seen to any kind of planning to move ahead in a compehensive manner to benefit the entire Erie County was the Envision Erie plan that I attended on June 26th. Not many people, in fact, I don’t know of even one comment about that group even surfaced.
    John Morris tries to comment on the benefit of planning and cites examples of what other area are doing to move their areas forward.
    I am going to meet with the Envision Erie founders shortly and hope to
    see if they are moving forward with an agenda to regionalize efforts for the benefit of the entire area.

    Seems to me that the residents elect that representatives of this area and are just as much responsible for the outcome of those actions as the people elected, I have met some very nice people with deep roots in this community but positive attitudes only goes so far, positive implementation goes much faster. The jury is still out on whether this area has the “will” to implement a growth plan with spelled out guidelines and policies for the area for everyone to view and comment and shape into reality.

    The State of Pa. has a huge incentive to protect its cash flow from the gambling in Erie and the owners of the Casino have 300 million dollars invested, Erie has many attractions and 5,000 hotel rooms and
    millions of tourists shopping here and being retired, I don’t need a job,
    Erie is fine just the way it is, I just thought that companies like GE and other companies that could move here and provide more good paying jobs might benefit and give more vitaility to the area and I worked hard to promote GE and manufacturing in this area nationally during April when we had media attention, but if I wanted to help market the Bayfront Development or the potential of the Erie area it becomes difficult with the lack of what types of developments the area is planning
    to accomodate and support. The real estate market in Erie is healthier than most markets, hotels are being built on Peach Street as we speak,
    a hotel is being planned next to the Casino and the Casino has expansion plans. They have a plan, they are adding 500 more stalls, increasing the casino amenities and building jockey and groom quarters. Erie will continue to grow its tourist business, Splash Lagoon invested lots of money upgrading its attraction, Waldemeer invested a lot of money upgrading its roller-coaster attraction.
    Maybe someone could uncover what uses would be supported on the Bayfront to support the $80 million dollars invested in the Convention Center and Hotel and how the synergism from that developement could benefit the downtown and midtown area so maybe someday the Parade Street area could have a reason to attract more development.

14. Ted Benson
    July 16th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Wouldn’t it be great if some of these bloggers and commenters became involved in the fix. I’ve been gone from Erie for 8 years now and 3 things continue to amaze me about its populace. First: Erieites love to knock the awful politics and deteriorating industry. Second: Erieites love to talk about their hundreds ideas and solutions to fix the awful politics and deteriorating industry. Third: It never goes beyond the talk.

    In a growing, thriving, progressive city the only thing constant is change.
    In Erie, the only thing constant is the “same”.

15. bojosmom
    July 17th, 2008 at 2:27 am

    wow! really enjoyed reading these views. All of them have merit. I do not want to beleaguer any of the excellent points made except the fact that Erie remains mired in attitudes reactive instead of proactive in so many areas. A substantial change in the political scene could help but I don’t really see it on the horizon. A more active electorate is needed, also probably not going to happen despite the presidential election year. It is encouraging to note the amount of ‘buzz’ on the electronic media about this area’s state of affairs. Still hopeful that change is possible.

16. George Vietze
    July 17th, 2008 at 6:24 am

    Change is possible, but it needs direction and structure and most of all it need “heart”, you have to want it!

    I am meeting with PA Futures, Alan Kugler and Renee Lamis this morning for breakfast for an update on Envision Erie. On June 26, the first meeting I attended the room was filled with concerned citizens from all aspects of the community, including an Erie city councilman,
    the agenda was comprehensive and had direction.

    Things can change and will change but unless you are part of the solution it will change without your input. Your comments about the lack of change will not have the same ring. I will try to comment candidly about the progress of this group being formed and the direction it decides to go. This grass root attempt to organize cross jurisdictional collaborative effort that employs a bottom-up, all inclusive thinking, plans, and actions to transform community thinking and involvement in an effort to create a more vibrant future for the entire Erie County has peaked my interest.

17. George Vietze
    July 17th, 2008 at 6:35 am

    The meeting on June 26 was at the Erie Museum on State St. after 5pm. It is open to the public and is free. One of the first goals is to publish a web site for Envision Erie.

    Thank you for your interest, after I meet with Alan and Renee this morning I will fill you in.

18. Jim
    July 17th, 2008 at 6:51 am

    When is the next meeting? During or after working hours? Is it open to the public? What is the cost of joining?

    I went to the link you provided, but could not find information regarding the project. I know, and have worked with Alan during his Pennsylvania Economy League days, and am interested.

19. Radio Free JoJo
    July 17th, 2008 at 8:06 am

    We did have some forward-thinking leaders once. Though they were flawed (who isn’t), voters elected the two Rick’s in 2001 in desperate hope that change would happen. All people remember is the bad stuff, but these are the same fellows who tried regional cooperation with C3, Schenker started the loan fund, Filippi tried to modernize City Hall with computer payroll, and better tax collection. In the end, their failures caused the region’s leaders to turn their backs on progressive agendas for local government and regional cooperation. Meanwhile, the smart manufacturers like GE, Eriez, and Lord are doing well, understanding their roles in a global economy, in spite of the obstacles presented by our state and local systems.

20. Jim
    July 17th, 2008 at 8:30 am

    I think a portion of the two Rick’s failures was orchestrated by some of the so called “leaders” who felt threatened. I heard a lot of behind the scenes negativity directed towards both of them almost from the beginning of their terms. Schenker because he was a republican replacing a long time democrat in his office, and Filippi because he came from council, and was no longer part of the club. It seemed to me that both had decks stacked against them by people who should have been pulling together with them. Whether that contributed towards Filippi’s perceived arrogance problem or not I don’t know, but I do believe he was surprised by the dramatic shift in the relationship he had with former council colleagues after moving to the fifth floor. Especially the interference in public safety issues by council injecting themselves into issues between labor and the mayor.

    Schenker had a republican council, and Filippi had a democrat council, so they should not have had the problems with council that they did. In both cases, councils blamed the executive branch for the problem, but in my opinion never went half way themselves. At the county, it cost the republicans the majority on council, and the executive office, in the city, well, it cost Filippi his job, but the council is still the council. But the others, some of them on Peter’s lists played rolls both places, that did not make life any easier for either.

    So now we two new people in those positions. Neither has the potential of the previous office holders, yet it seems, with perhaps the exception of DiVecchio, that the back room criticism has been essentially silenced because those same “leaders” no longer feel threatened. And even the criticism of DiVecchio is personal, not issues.

    I, for one, would like to see some of the initiatives started by the two Ricks revived, maybe restructured a bit, and re-instituted. Perhaps the Envision Erie project can achieve some of what C3 attempted.

21. Peter Panepento
    July 17th, 2008 at 9:04 am

    The two Ricks definitely brought a new vision and had incredible potential to produce change. Together, they could have really made a tremendous difference had they stayed in their positions long term.

    They faced a tremendous uphill battle and, in Filippi’s case at least, made mistakes that undermined the positive changes they were hoping to bring.

22. Danny Lucas
    July 17th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    PLAY BALL with Ted Benson

    “I’ve been gone from Erie for 8 years now and 3 things continue to amaze me about its populace. First: Erieites love to knock the awful politics and deteriorating industry. Second: Erieites love to talk about their hundreds ideas and solutions to fix the awful politics and deteriorating industry. Third: It never goes beyond the talk.”

    Ted has missed 8 innings of play locally, but manages to put 3 comments on base in HIS comments (while chiding comments at the same time).

    Is this a foul ball or a strike, a walk, or a hit?
    Umpire Peter is silent so let’s ask the fans.
    “Say, Danny…..whadda ya think of Ted’s swing at bat there/”

    “Well, on his first attempt at bat, he says “Erieites love to knock the awful politics and deteriorating industry”. Ted, is 1/4 inch from swinging a hit. Fortunately for him, the pitcher was outside the box and Ted gets a walk.

    Erieites do talk politics. Thank God they are not silent on it as they are in Apathy, USA.. But it does seem to be the same lament every time and few, few, few kudos to any politician who gets it right. Does no politician “get it right ever?” HAH! Of course they do!
    But you would never know it.

    The easiest way for , say Jim, to get rid of Mayor Sinnott is not the ballot (Jim is in Fairview anyway). Nope. If Jim were to give a compliment to the Mayor, or let all hell break loose and compliment City Council, both would keel over dead from a compliment-induced, heart attack
    I guess that would be the ultimate in ‘grassroots’ reform right there.

    Too bad the ball was outside.
    Ted shoulda smashed this anyway and he could have had a double.
    Keep this up and Ted will be sent back to a different Division”.

    “Did Ted teach any more baseball math Danny? Does it add up?”

    “I’m glad you asked. Look at his second time at bat.
    Ted plants his feet firmly in the ground with this:
    “Erieites love to talk about their hundreds ideas and solutions to fix the awful politics and deteriorating industry.”

    WELL, Talk begets solutions; silence condones problems.
    Since Erieites are talking up hundreds of ideas, but solutions evade the problem, this appears as a “listening” dilemma” more than a talking dilemma, doncha think?

    It appears that seasoned hitters are getting too much time at bat.
    They talk, and talk, and talk. Intimidated bystanders just watch and shake heads up-and-down, or side-to-side. I personally can not hear their input when they do this. Speak up you fans!!!

    Then, the outfield is dropping easy flies everywhere.
    C’mon. Any team out there does SOMETHING right.
    Let’s hear it for the job well done for a change.
    Profiles at Outside Erie is dead silent.

    And Ted’s observation of talk on deteriorating industry is true.
    It is probably a function of (very) offensive coaches teaching how to deteriorate our industry, better than the defensive coaches teaching how to invigorate industry.
    We need more invigoration; put Smith Hot Dogs in our view as a winner weiner more often, just one of several industries that refuses to deteriorate…….and the fans refuse to note that!
    SECOND WALK.”

    “Well Danny, do you think Ted plays the game in any comment?”

    “Yes he does. I am so glad you asked.
    Ted says “Third: It never goes beyond the talk”

    I am old school on observations.
    It is so difficult to prove a positive and so easy to prove a negative.
    I always say, whatever is made as a statement is obviously TRUE, unless one can find a single variance with the TRUTH. In that case, the TRUE is a LIE. A good lie helps in golf, but not baseball or life.

    Is “it never goes beyond the talk” true?
    Or, in the last 8 years, has any company formed in this town? (Logistics Plus is 12 years old so that doesn’t count I guess. But just ask yourself, has any business started in Erie in the 8 years since Ted booked out? BWA-HA-HA-HA.)

    Has any individual moved here? (Jennings Secede From the South)

    Does anyone put there money where their mouth is?
    (George Vietze praises the place up and down the yin yang and purchased a real estate development on top of that. I think that is George’s Ad up in the right corner of Outside Erie blog.)

    Does everyone feel “it never goes beyond the talk?”
    (Anonymous Donor of $100,000,000.00 this year to Erie, PA respectfully disagrees with Ted).

    Since we have myriad variance with the TRUTH of Ted, the TRUTH of Ted is a LIE.
    WALK”

    “Gee Danny. Ted has three WALKS.
    What do you think will happen next?”

    “I’m glad you asked. There are two ways to score in baseball.
    A good hitter can hit a base or two or three or home run.
    It is done every season without fail, and on many teams.

    The other way to score, is to have the advantage of some lousy pitching and walk, walk, walk, walk……..all the way home.

    Ted WILL score. How he scores is a verdict not yet in”

    Play Ball.
    GO SEAWOLVES.

23. James A
    July 17th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    “anyone want to guess the political party in control of most of these cities? Anyone? Beuller?”

    That would be the same political party that controls most cities, period: Democrats. Republicans are strongest in the rural areas. Take a look at a population-density-by-county US map, and then a vote-by-county US map, and you’ll see a pretty strong correlation. The fact that Democrats control cities in a given region that’s experiencing particularly bad times, doesn’t really say all that much about the quality of Democrats’ policies - especially if other Democrat-controlled cities in other regions aren’t doing as badly. All it means is the region’s having problems, and that cities tend to vote Democrat.

    Now if the rural areas controlled by Republicans aren’t doing as bad now as they were before, relative to the cities, then that might say something about the economic policies of the parties.

24. Danny Lucas
    July 17th, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    Here is some Red and Blue for you ala James A thoughts above.
    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2004/11/2004_election_county-by-county/

    I not only agree with his assessment, I believe that the refusal of both parties to unite and work on behalf of this nation is in direct correlation to our beleagured status.

    USA Today had a more recent map of Red/Blue, but the idea is the same in this map.

    The same holds true for blogs.
    Oftentimes, a blog roll reveals the “lean” of a blogger.
    Ironically, most bloggers “lean” in the direction of folks who think precisely as they do. In choosing real-life friends, this may be a plus.

    But, in widening your views to accommodate the spectrum of an audience, it behooves any writer to allow a blog roll that reflects opinions at variance with your own.

    Afterall, the world is built that way, and, it is the best way to learn why folks who differ from you, think, the way they do.

25. George Vietze
    July 18th, 2008 at 10:29 am

    I had a breakfast meeting with the Envision Erie people, Alan R. Kugler and Renee Lamis of PA Futures. It was a most informative meeting from my perspective of trying to understand the culture of this area and the best way to move forward toward the future.

    Alan told me that he will begin posting on Globalerie in the near future.

26. Jim
    July 18th, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Danny, for your information I did give kados to the mayor for hiring competent legal representation for the current negotiations and arbitration. Not that it did any good, but at least this time, no one can make the argument that the city lost the arbitration from being unprepared.

    As my grandfather used to say, even a clock that is stopped is right twice a day.

    Perhaps others might disagree, but a man I know once said, I don’t say much about what is going right, I concentrate on the problems that need solving. Here in Erie we have an enormous number of pressing issues from the cost of government’s growth rate, to the area economic decline with a host of issues in between. I fail to see much value in wanting to constantly pass out atta-boys for mostly irrelevant actions.

    And while I may live in Fairview, I work in Erie, and between the retained wage taxes, and EMS tax (or whatever they call it now) between my wife and I we pay more to the city than we do to Fairview in municipal property tax on our house. As such, I have a vested interest in how those dollars are spent, even if I can’t vote for those spending them. (It’s called taxation without representation. An issue as I recall this country was founded on.)

27. Danny Lucas
    July 18th, 2008 at 11:22 am

    As my grandfather used to say, even a clock that is stopped is right twice a day.
    —- Jim

    Your grandfather stood on the firm ground of being right!
    However, let us now pretend that you are young and courting your wife.
    She and you do not always agree. You turn to her and say:
    “Gee honey, you have all the attributes of my busted clock; you are actually right two times a day”.

    As you can see, grampa got away with the truth; you would get away without a courtship any longer. Same sentence; different outcomes.

    When I moved from Edinboro to Millcreek long ago, the new house was purchased in November, with a move the first week of December.

    I filed income taxes with Millcreek as I resided there at the end of the year.
    Millcreek was 1%; Edinboro was 2%.

    Edinboro filed an audit and claim wanting 2% of my local earnings sent to THEM for the period January thru mid November. They allowed that Millcreek could have the balance of the year. This was in the days before Berkheimer monopoly, so Millcreek queried a bunch of other townships and got a consensus.

    If it was fair to tax a Millcreek resident (at the end of a year) for a partial time that he lived elsewhere, then it would have to be true that any individual who moved INTO Edinboro would get two things:
    1) They would pay 1% local tax for the part of the year they lived anywhere in Erie County — and townships would watch for this now!
    2) They would be entitled to a 1% reinbursement for overpayment to Edinboro for having “wrongly” paid 2% for the entire year to Edinboro, despite living there only part of a year.

    The sword would cut two ways.

    As you can see Jim, I am intimately familiar with the “No Taxation Without Representation” dilemma you noted. Indeed, County law and practice would be essentially formed on the basis of Edinboro’s response to my tax case.

    Edinboro could NOT have it both ways.
    Either folks in the county were free to move anywhere anytime and pay at their residence as of December 31st each year, OR the year would be prorated to any municipality you lived at any portion of the year.

    Essentially, the county was at 1% local so it was a wash.
    The exception? Edinboro and the 2% double taxation for NOTHING.
    In an attempt to overreach into my now Millcreek wallet, Edinboro would be watched for every citizen from any municipality moving INTO Edinboro.

    This would mean that virtually all people moving into Edinboro in any year FOREVER would pay less taxes thanks to proration of time.
    OR, Lucas would become a Millcreek resident by virtue of where he lived at the end of the year —as it was customary in Erie County all along BEFORE my case. Ole Randy out there in the Boro could see the fallacy of his overreach.

    Millcreek did a damn fine job backing their folks!
    1% for the whole year instead of 2% for a part of the year.
    Those Township Supervisors and I got off to a good start.

    You imply that you pay local taxes to Erie, PA instead of Fairview.
    I am not talking property tax. I am talking income tax.
    I know Erie hits folks by taking a piddly tax for working in the city, but I last heard it to be an initiation of $35 or $50. Hardly in line with Fairview property tax.

    If you reside in Fairview and pay Erie INCOME tax, call up Millcreek supervisors and learn the law. It is a hassle for nothing in your case since 1% is 1% in either locale. But Fairview SHOULD get the dough for folks who live in Fairview, regardless of where they work.

    If the law has been changed, someone should find out why and change it back.

    One step more, ……when I moved from Pennsylvania to Florida, I was delighted to find that Florida has no local tax or state tax. They stick it to visitors to the Sunshine State and make property taxes that would wince the eyes off Punxatawney Phil!

    Now it got convoluted for a significant portion of Florida folks actually have 2 houses; one in the cold and one in Florida. Where do they live?
    This gets funnier than fake wrestling as politicians go after the dollars.

    But tax stuff aside, please tell your wife that she is truthfully accurate when she speaks, and accurate even MORE than 2 times a day like grampa’s clock..
    She will probably keep you around longer if you do that.

    We will too.

    Best regards, Jim.

28. Julio C. Reyes
    July 18th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    Danny,

    Not that it really makes a big difference but the rate for Erie these days is 1.18%

    http://www.erie.pa.us/Departments/IncomeTaxEmergencyMunicipalServicesTax/tabid/71/Default.aspx

    The good news is that somebody in the legislature is already trying to centralize the income tax collection around PA municipalities (the odds are it might happen in our life time). This change is long overdue because the problem you presented in your post.

    I believe PA has the record for all this tax collections non sense. But I might be wrong.

29. Julio C. Reyes
    July 18th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Danny,

    It also seems that Edinboro is now only 1.5%. Apparently they recently adjusted it according to the link the rates are effective 01/01/08. As I said many times to keep track of the tax changes and stop the crooks from taking money out of my pockets you need to have a tax attorney on call

    http://munstatspa.dced.state.pa.us/ReportViewer.aspx?R=EitEmstCombined&municipality_id=250243&reporting_year=2008&report_type=O&rendering=H

30. Danny Lucas
    July 18th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Well Jim,
    Julio points it out right there that even a Boro clock can get it right more than twice a day. Taxes went DOWN in Edinboro, PA on income.

    John Kennedy said “We will pay any price, bear any burden,”.
    He was thinking of Edinboro, PA to take him up on that ideal.

    Kudos and kudos to Edinboro for lowering income tax. Now, instead of being the HIGHEST local income tax in all of PA, it is only the highest local income tax in all of PA, but not as high as in old days of highest. Phew!

    I have lost track of the community over time, but it would make a great micro study of Erie, PA.

    The University is off limits for property tax.
    The State of PA owns the place. BUT, the water that thousands of kids require for showers, cleaning cars, and mixing ice cubes for drinking has to be paid for by someone. That would be the local populace.
    And, what comes in, has to be sewered out.
    Free to the University but not the locals.

    Rentals are big in town since the town is basically students.
    However, in days of yore, many of the properties, especially on lakeside in pre-pollution days, was owned by Pittsburgh folks. They liked to come up and enjoy Edinboro Lake in summer; then, in fall and spring semester, shove six students into the cottage and rent it out at fees that require Steel Mill Wages.

    That means, they were absentee landlords.
    This should also sound familiar to Erie.

    Coed dorms soon came in as kids got tired of pretending they were shacking up and wanted full university sanctioning. The Boro complied and now, they are building suites for him and her combos in the same unit. College life is gonna take things to a new level in Edinboro.

    Julio, at first the tax lowering seems good news.
    In the intervening years since my wallet gouging, er,…my taxation….
    the water has now gone from well water to metered water. No more free and part of taxes; you pay for it via meter.

    The municipal guys spilled a drum of perchlorethelene, if I recall right.
    It leached into the ground. Lo and behold, the well for the Boro was down below. Since this stuff makes cancer cells of epic proportion, it was deemed a good idea to drill a new well.

    They did.

    The new well had a high manganese content, but manganese is easier on the body than perchlorethylene. However, when manganese comes into contact with soap, say when you wash dishes, your car, or your body in the tub, it has a funny side habit of turning things orange.

    I kid you not. You could turn orange in the tub and your cleaned clothes looked like a Florida license plate orange.

    Not to worry.

    The Boro would now sell you a tiny bottle of anti-orange chemical to take the orange out. $12 a bottle. Bottle lasted less time than an ice cube in a coed drink at the Frat parties.

    Now, I ask you, how do you sell a house in an environment with the highest taxes in the state, metered water, volunteer fire, University off limits for taxes but uses the sewer like a Superbowl Ad time flush, polluted lake and you turn orange when you bathe?
    There are some classic world famous real estate guys there and I would be most happy to recommend mine at the time.
    Miracleworker was his nickname.

    Now if Edinboro could go through all that and survive (Teledyne Penn Union lost the Teledyne in their name as corporate life shed the place….just like Erie too huh?)…..
    well then there is hope for Erie to lower taxes one day.

    Now, I remember the algae in the tiny Lake in the Boro too. The farmers used phosphate in long ago days, fertilizers, and additives that had a habit of running downhill with the rains. Edinboro is in a valley. You may recall the tornado of 1985 hit Albion and Corry. Both are on Rt. 6N as is Edinboro in between. That tornado went through Edinboro too, but it did it ABOVE the town by not lowering into the valley. It wrecked west and east of town.

    But anything else ends up in the man made lake. The dam is down by the old Post Office (since long gone, but the Hotel Bar is still thereby the dam). The Post Office now sells sub sandwiches for a living.

    People do not like to swim in floral muck.
    Chemicals had a bad reputation as you can see itemized above.
    The Boro decided to kill those weeds by freezing them.
    Edinboro probably gets more cold and snow than any comparable sized location on Earth. They do not measure silly inches. they measure in feet and yards, and meters, and miles.

    Ice froze the lake over. They pulled the plug on the dam and all the water left downstream. When it did, there was a lot of cracking all around the lake. No water underneath caused the ice to collapse and break. Of course, it was attached to every dock on the lake and simply pulled the docks inland into what used to be the lake.

    Weeds, and a buncha new docks came back the next summer.

    The idea was sound, but the timing was off.
    Beats chemicals , so let us try again next year.
    They did.

    This time, they pulled the plug on the dam BEFORE the lake froze. Water left, and exposed the ground for winter weed revenge, for a good 50 to 100 feet around the lake perimeter.

    Everything died on schedule. The plug was put back in the dam.
    Huge chunks of ice now began to shift. Guess what happens when ice chunks hit your new dock and smash into it? The lumber companies never had it so good.

    This called for savvy political thinking. Hmmm, said the saVvy.

    So now, they pulled the plug a third year and did it early.
    Ice and snow and cold killed weeds.
    The lake was allowed to defrost to water again.
    ONLY then could the plug be put back in.
    They did.

    There was very little rain that year. The snow melt poured into the valley and ,with the plug removed, went down to Conneautee Creek, to French Creek to the Alleghany, the Ohio and the Mississippi until someone said “Hey! We is low on water here”.

    Summer came and the folks looked at their new, new, new docks standing on bare ground and no water.

    On the plus side, no one turned orange that year.

    So if you think life in Erie is tough, I want to tell you that the Keystone in Keystone State has a true story that has never been told in the history books. You heard it here at GlobalErie.

31. Jim
    July 18th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    Danny your analysis only works if your wife is not a little slow, like my watch, and therefore never right.

    As for taxes, the wage tax in Erie is 1.18%. They remit 1% to the taxing bodies of residence, in most cases 1/2 to the municipality and the other half to the school district. They retain the other .18% for themselves. Property taxes are comprised of three parts, the county tax which is uniform across the county, the school district tax which varies by school district and the municipal tax. In Fairview the municipal tax is .95 mils, which works out to $95.00 / $100,000.00 of assessed value. My wife and I both work in Erie, and the two EMS taxes she and I pay added together with the .18% retention on the wage tax totals more than the .95 mills we pay on the house. I get to vote for the supervisors. I don’t get to vote for mayor or council mayors. But I do get to comment. What I reject in total is the oft made argument that because I live in Fairview, I should have no voice in Erie, in spite of working here, wanting my employer to prosper, and contributing tax revenue to the city.

    Is the attitude that if someone works in the city, but lives outside city limits you want their money but not their ideas? Does being unemployed and a non voter but a city resident make an opinion more valuable? Is a city business owner residing in the suburbs unwanted? Should non resident workers be concerned about how the increasing cost of government impacts their job security? Should city home owners be concerned about eroding tax base impacting their taxes? Isn’t it in everyone’s interests to address controlling the rate at which costs of government (including county and school district) increase? Do you think city school spending (like Barker’s wages) influences suburban districts?

    As Red Green is fond of saying, ‘We’re all in this together’. Pass the duct-tape.

32. Julio C. Reyes
    July 18th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    Danny,

    Just for clarification purposes and have the record straight.

    I am happy you used my posts and my name to describe the problems with water in Edinboro. I do not know the details about it so I can not comment but I will take your word for it.

    Now, you said:

    “”””Julio, at first the tax lowering seems good news.””””

    My two original posts were only to reflect the current rates both in Erie and Edinboro because apparently the rates had been adjusted. Where in my posts I said that lowering taxes was good news?

    My expression: “””””As I said many times to keep track of the tax changes and stop the crooks from taking money out of my pockets you need to have a tax attorney on call “””” was made just trying to be nice in my correction that’s all.

    I seem to remember somebody saying recently something like this:

    ————————————————————————————————————————————————

    Since I have NEVER said that, an opinion is attributed to me that I have not said or advocated. Indeed, recently, I applauded the works of Keeper and grassroot effort to enlighten the locals.

    Julio needs to express HIS opinions alone; and, let me be responsible for mine. Even a restatement is unecessary. My words generally express what I think.
    I stopped reading the post when I saw that glaring error.
    Given the magnitude, I feel the balance of the post is likely in error too.
    And Julio, let’s save Tire Plant for a post on that topic.

    ————————————————————————————————————————————————

    So I guess the only fair thing to do at this time is to that answer like this:

    Since I have NEVER said that, an opinion is attributed to me that I have not said or advocated. Indeed, I applaud the works of everybody in this forum to enlighten the “locals”.

    Danny needs to express HIS opinions alone; and, let me be responsible for mine. Even a restatement is unnecessary. My words generally express what I think.

    I stopped reading the post when I saw that glaring error.

    Given the magnitude, I feel the balance of the post is likely in error too.

    And Danny, let’s save the conversation about what I think about taxation for a post on that topic.

33. Danny Lucas
    July 18th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    From Danny…..the CLAIM:
    “I filed income taxes with Millcreek as I resided there at the end of the year. Millcreek was 1%; Edinboro was 2%.

    From Julio….the CORRECTION
    “Danny,
    It also seems that Edinboro is now only 1.5%. Apparently they recently adjusted it according to the link the rates are effective 01/01/08.”

    From Danny……A LOGICAL CONCLUSION
    “Julio, at first the tax lowering seems good news.”

    From Julio……..THIN SKIN and ANOTHER MEASURE of a MAN anew.

    “Since I have NEVER said that, an opinion is attributed to me that I have not said or advocated. Indeed, I applaud the works of everybody in this forum to enlighten the “locals”.

    [ON THE CONTRARY, THE OPINION IS FROM YOU and YOUR LINK]
    1.5% versus the claim of 2%.

    Danny needs to express HIS opinions alone; and, let me be responsible for mine.

    [YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE; THE LINK at 1:31 pm IS YOURS]

    Even a restatement is unnecessary. My words generally express what I think.
    I stopped reading the post when I saw that glaring error.
    Given the magnitude, I feel the balance of the post is likely in error too.
    And Danny, let’s save the conversation about what I think about taxation for a post on that topic.”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Your name will not enter a post of mine again Julio.
    Thank you.

34. Radio Free JoJo
    July 18th, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    All of this talk about taxes reminded me why our state and region looses big ticket investments like the VW plant to Tennessee, where, according to tennessee.gov: “The individual income tax is imposed only on individuals and other entities receiving interest from bonds and notes and dividends from stock.”

    That’s right, NO tax on regular wages, low property taxes ($900 per $100K assessed in Nashville), but sales tax approx. 9% in Nashville which sounds high except when you compare it to Allegheny County’s 7%; not so much.

    Part of the missing will of our leaders is their lack of being totally obsessed with lowering our taxes and raising our competitiveness.

35. Jim
    July 18th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    Our problem in Pennsylvania is that we want to tax (penalize) producers and reward consumption (dept).

    When you penalize success and reward failure, in addition to housing bubbles, people leave. As VW did. And when they do come back, they come back somewhere else; if you get my drift.

    Some, naturally not close to all, off shore production is coming home to America, because of logistic costs, poor quality, etc. The question is; will jobs that were outsourced from Pennsylvania to other countries and then come home, come home to Pennsylvania? I doubt it, as VW has shown. So, why don’t we change our thinking a little and reward success, and tax consumption, like some of our competition is doing?

    Maybe the answer lies in the reason Al Gore couldn’t carry his home state.

36. Julio C. Reyes
    July 18th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    Danny,

    Please do not make a tantrum and do be so dramatic. A better answer from you should have been. Hey, Julio never mind, we obviously reached a DIFFERENT logical conclusion.

    Danny, it is quite obvious that you interpreted my post (link I provided) as a logical conclusion for you. But unless you read my mind you really have no way of knowing my opinion. But more importantly if you had read my post in more detail and look at the little face . You had probably reconsider your “logical conclusion”

    Also, in my first post I was very careful to say: not that it (% 0.18 rate) really makes a big difference in the scale of things. I actually believe that you and I agree in a lot of subjects including taxation.

    In fact, it might be in the interest of better postings when the message (post) is not clear we should ask the other party about what they really mean instead of just reaching “Logical Conclusions”

    As I said many times before I do post here not only to educate and inform the “locals” but to challenge and enrich my intellect. As a Blogger in this forum, I really enjoy reading your comments because for the most part are accurate.

    Besides, I just wanted to get even with you cutting and pasting you correcting post to me a couple of days ago. What is wrong with that?

37. Julio C. Reyes
    July 18th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    Jim,

    You said:

    ”””Maybe the answer lies in the reason Al Gore couldn’t carry his home state.”””

    Once people like you start going back to your political propaganda, dogma and rhetoric you lose any kind of reasonable perspective.

    How many times I have to say SIZE does matter. I really do not care what any politician or expert say about the VWs automobile plants in the US.

    VW started in an old Chrysler plant if I remember correctly. That plant is now owned by Sony and it is much likely Sony got a sweat deal from PA government. The facilities were there already so VW just moved in. VW moved out not because outsourcing but because they did not sell more cars in the US. Why they did not sell more VWs in the US because it will be a hell of a job to change the VWs designs to make them bigger.

    The Japanese in the other hand. They started penetrating the US market with smaller more quality cars then slowly but surely they were moving to the bigger more luxury cars just by making small adjustments.

    Size does matter. Even if God gives VW full free support, free labor and free utilities. They will shut down the plant, if they do not sell enough VWs in the US and the promotional free real state tax deal expires. NO sales, NO business, no matter where you are: Erie, The Moon, China, Mars, you name it.

38. Ted Benson
    July 18th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    Danny,

    Thank you for “more talk”. It proves my point. While my comments didn’t mean to say that Erie was without merit (people keep coming back), I am reading on this blog many of the same discouraging comments I listened to in the 40 years before I left. We can always have hope (just ask Barack) but without the right leadership and a “hopeful” populace, little will change.

39. Danny Lucas
    July 18th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    Ted,
    You are a good sport.
    There was a bit of a spoof in that PLAY BALL commentary and you are gracious in response. Thank you.

    Many comments here are as you describe and worse;
    without merit, thought, composition, insight, helpfulness, meaning, personal attack, or not worth the time to read.

    It is so much worse in other venues and formats. (Topix?)
    There is an underlying anger, insistence, resentment, hopelessness, and negativity in many comments. I will grant that.
    I attribute it to life experiences, and sometimes, cultural pity parties.

    But I would like you to wade through all the comments anyway.
    Why?

    To find a single diamond, tons of Earth are moved.
    To find a single nugget of gold, entire mountainsides are moved aside.
    To find a comment worth reading, and acting upon the thoughts described, perhaps entire encyclopedias of baloney have to be perused to find them.

    Glean the entire field of comments here; find the diamonds and the gold. In the end, those are the ones that will make the community of Erie, PA the wealthy place that it is, for the poorest souls among us.

    And if you have the time, throw a diamond-in-the-rough of your own in here, and we can polish it together.

    Best regards, Ted.
    Danny Lucas

40. john morris
    July 19th, 2008 at 1:13 am

    Wow, there’s alot of words here and I haven’t read half of them yet.

    Getting back to Ian’s observation about which party has controled most urban areas. I think an unconcious comprimise was reached that Democrats could continue their control of urban areas, just as long as the government provided more and more money for a lavish road system allowing Republicans to escape.

    It’s pretty ironic, but the base of many “rugged individualist” economies in the burbs were based implicitly on one of the government’s largest socialist entitlement programs, which is the road network. But now, since the government likely doesn’t have the money to maintain this network, a big problem is comming up and the comprimise is breaking down.

    Many of the original transit systems in the US were started by private companies and some like Hong Kong’s run today at a profit. So it’s pretty concievable to imagine the privatisation of a of agood chunk of the commuter rail infrastructure as well as the emergence of a small number of profitable toll roads. But the bulk of current infrastructure, could never possibly pay for itself. The current terror about tolls on route 80 is a good example of the problem. The New Jersey Govenor has also proposed huge increses for the Jersey Turnpike.

    I think that over time we can get back to amore sustainable infrastructure which will probably be based on rail. The current personal car based system creates a no win conflict between cities and their suburbs since the need for mixed use walkable density and high value land use is always undermined by the space needed for roads and parking. Rail however allows a synergistic relationship to exist between cities and suburbs by boosting density along corridors and eliminating the need for a lot of cars in center cities.

41. john morris
    July 19th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    I found a somewhat related link to the emerging trend towards tearing down urban highways and replacing them with boulevards This was once an isolated thing. NY replaced the former West Side Highway with a wide avenue after it collapsed and San Fransisco replaced several elevated highways like the Embarcadero after they were damaged by quakes with wide streets. Now the trend has picked up steam.

    .”Toronto is moving toward razing a jumbo suburban-style highway interchange. Seattle expects Washington State to tear down the massive, elevated Alaskan Way Viaduct. New Haven, Connecticut, is mobilizing to replace a short expressway with a boulevard, and Trenton, New Jersey would like to do the same.”

    “The benefits of expressway removals have been demonstrated in cities like Milwaukee and San Francisco. Demolition of Milwaukee’s Park East Freeway in 2003, a priority of John Norquist during his 15 years as mayor, has helped tie that city’s downtown area together and has set the stage for hundreds of millions of dollars of real estate projects.

    After the elimination of the Park East, Milwaukee built a six-lane boulevard known as McKinley Avenue and reconnected streets that had been cut off for decades. Developers appear eager to fill much of the 16-acre expanse with condominiums, hotels, restaurants, offices — a lively mixed-use district that may get fixed-transit service to nearby sections of downtown. ”

    http://www.newurbannews.com/

    Two big drivers, likely to push the trend is the huge cost of repairing elevated urban highways and the elevated tax revenues that might come from opening up valuable land to development.

    The one thing that’s clear is that Boston’s big dig was likely the last gargantuan projt of it’s kind in the U.S. We just don’t have the money.

    The article also talks about other tear downs like one in Toronto in progress and long line up of proposed tear downs including a major one south of Buffalo, one in New Haven and one in Seatle

42. Jim
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:59 am

    ,Julio, you are missing the point on Tennesee, and the political implications, and how it not only affects polticial aspirations, but the economy as well.

    Al Gore was elected to serve the interests of Tennesee. Doesn’t matter which party, but in this case it was the democrat party. But he got to Washington, got eager to move up and left the interests of Tennesee behind. As a presidential candidate, he pandered to the interests of organized labor, with support that went far beyond those of the state of Tennesee, from which he came. But, he was running for President of the USA, not Tennesee, right? Well his shift, cost him his home state, which had he won it, would have put him in the White House.

    Now fast forward to VW. You are absolutely right about the market. Demend ebbs and flows, and production is impacted accordingly. VW sales fell, and the Pennsylvania plant closed. Demand picks up, logistical cost increase, and the need arises for production again. Happens all the time. But, where it happens is what I am interested in. And it didn’t happen here, or in our state. It happened in the state that rejected Gore’s labor relationship. That is a significant point, when talking about the need for change in political leadership. Tennesee rejected the AFL-CIO agenda that Gore pandered to, and they got the jobs. We in Pennsylvania embraced it, and were not even considered for those jobs, which whether they last only 10 years or a century shoulod have been welcomed here. My frustration is there is a lesson there that we are refusing to learn. It has little to do with party, but everything to do with what the party objectives are, if successful.

    I don’t care about what party a person comes from, as much as I care about will that persons policy objectives grow the tax base, by providing meaningful jobs, preferably lasting ones,but I’ll take what puts employment opportunities out there for people to access, that at the same time provides a positive cash flow to government. As an example locally, I supported DiVecchio, a democrat, because what he was promoting made more sense than McBrier, especially with regard to public safety. It is about msking choices based upon what one thinks is best for the community, not about voting the way my parents did, or a union or some other special interest group tells me to.

43. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    Jim,

    I just came back from the gym with my lovely wife. I feel good and relax so I will be nice in my response to you.

    First, I am very happy you understand that closing the VW had nothing to do at that time with anything else but the VW sales in the US market.

    Now, lets talk about being competitive to attract new business.

    First let me say, that I believe Labor Unions are needed all around the world. The secret is GOOD labor unions without corrupt leaders and without being in bed with both the government and/or the corporations. A GOOD labor union is always a good equalizer to contain the evils imposed by some corporations and bad government. In fact, I believe a GOOD Labor Union will be the only one that will be able to stop Wal-Mart from causing more harm all over the world.

    A lot of small companies should be totally exempt from unions when some conditions are met for example quantity of employees and sales to name a couple.

    I also want to make very clear that there are some Labor Unions really messing up the country for absolutely no reason other than continue to remain in power specially in the government.

    Enough about Unions so now, let move on to the real topic we are discussing here.

    Why VW pick Chattanooga instead of another location in PA.

    Just do some reading about that place in your spare time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattanooga,_Tennessee

    Jim,

    These days competing in the new Brave World. Global economy. Labor is only one part of the equation. The big companies consider other issues such as:

    Utilities, transportation, communications, health cost, demographics, talent available from similar industries within the same region. I guess if I have to pick a winner I will pick Chattanooga because their population is bigger and younger, they are a hub for transportation. Even FedEx pick up Memphis some years ago because the its geographical location. There is a new automotive industry around that part of the country and it is much likely some of the providers for the automotive plants might be already ISO/9000 certified. This certification might allow VWs to be up and running faster in that area.

    I guess we need to be a little more creative these days to compete with other areas. Please notice that I did not say Erie or PA are bad. My opinion is that we are not good enough right now to compete.

44. Julio C. Reyes
    July 20th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    Jim,

    In regards to the political commercial again, I am pretty sure that in every bar in the whole State of Tennessee people are puling their hair, scratching their heads and are teasing each other about how come they missed the boat and how badly they voted back then . But that of course is a different story.

    You said:

    “As an example locally, I supported DiVecchio, a democrat, because what he was promoting made more sense than McBrier, especially with regard to public safety.”

    My advice here is before you vote next time just visit the link below and decide if what a politician is promising you is already happening.

    http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table4ok_wi.htm

    Maybe once you find out how low is the crime in Erie, you might want to have secondary criteria before you vote for someone.

    Disclaimer:

    I do not vote and I do not belong to any political party.

45. Jim
    July 21st, 2008 at 6:22 am

    I have only missed two elections in my life, and one of them was due to being in the hospital, undergoing an unscheduled operation.

    That you don’t think enough of this country to exercise your obligation to vote says much. Calls into question all you’ve written. Care enough to spout off, but not enough to vote.

    Lost my respect.

46. Julio C. Reyes
    July 21st, 2008 at 10:52 am

    Jim,

    Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present some facts and educate people like you.

    My reasons for not voting are more personal than anything else but I will present to you two of the main reasons I do not vote:

    Numbers in our Democracy.

    The US population as of 2000 census was 209,128,094 people 18 and older. From that number we must deduct some that are not eligible to vote for numerous reasons such as being in prison, non citizen or having a criminal record. So let’s says that at that time they were about 2 or 3 million people in prison and let’s says that that we have about another 10 million with criminal records and non citizens over 18. The magic number should be around 190 – 200 million people eligible to vote.

    The presidential results in that year election were: Brown, Browne, Buchanan, Bush, Dodge, Gore, Hagelin the counts were 1,606; 384431; 448,895; 50,456,002; 50,999,897; and 83,714 respectively. Of course we know the election was “fixed” but never the less my point is that people voting that year were only 102,374,545.

    As you could see it is a very low percentage for a Democratic process. The official number given I believe was 48.3% of the eligible vote.

    Why I do not vote? In regards to the numbers I choose to be in the majority at this time and be one of over 100 million not voting.

    Voter’s knowledge,

    A lot of people in this forum and others had always complained that some votes are so stupid they should not vote. Oh well in regards to politics I am really stupid therefore I do not vote. These days the average person like me can not differentiate between real life (facts) and fantasy.

    The political campaigns are not done to present the true facts and problems facing the nation to sincerely inform and educate the public but instead they are based on the political propaganda to actively keep the public ignorant and misinformed. Everybody has heard by now the yellow cake, WMD, I did not have sex with that woman, the K Street project, the multiple War amputee from Georgia I believe was called not patriotic, Obama is a Muslim, and McCain was never in Vietnam, Oil drilling, Tax holidays, etc. Did you get my point already or I should continue.

    You said:

    “”””That you don’t think enough of this country to exercise your obligation to vote says much. Calls into question all you’ve written. Care enough to spout off, but not enough to vote. “””””””””””

    Nothing could be further than the true. Being politically involved is only one of the ways to improve this country. There are many ways to skin a cat. For my rather than playing Russian rule in the Political Dirty business I choose to follow my own methods trying to be a good citizen investing and working in the communities where I live.

    Posting in this forum true facts without a political or hidden agenda is a good example of my civic involvement and responsibilities. I paid my taxes and follow the Law. I have seen a lot of people voting in a given day and committing crimes right after. The same way I have seen people going to Church on Sunday and committing sin the rest of the week. Please do not tell me about exercising my obligations. I could proudly say that I do my part and sometimes I do more than a lot of people.

    One of my mottos is how the hell do you appreciate and respect something if you do not know if it is real or not. My favorite joke for people like you is of the people that honestly believe in spontaneous generation. They buy the political propaganda and go to vote without even considering the broader picture. When they vote they honestly believe they are fulfilling their obligations.

    I also challenge you to convince 100 million people in the US that what I just wrote is totally wrong. And of course that I wrote my stuff because I do not think enough of this country.

    Imagine in a given election day the whole country fills their ballots with an statement like this: I DO NOT LIKE THE CHOICES THEREFORE I DO NOT VOTE. GET ME SOMEBODY ELSE

    Technically this is happening now. But of course we are being ignored. How this dilemma was solved? The Electoral College but that of course is a totally different subject that I will not discuss here.

47. Danny Lucas
    July 21st, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Waving the flag on voting …………………….and not voting.
    Last Lap Underway. The yellow caution flag is waved.

    Making the final curve and headed for the checkered flag is Jim, who says: “Lost all my respect. (for failure to vote)”

    Moving up in a shaky vehicle comes the rebuttal:
    “Hey mon! Nobody is voting so I am a nobody too”.

    Drag plays its effect on this vehicle and it slows down to a stall out.

    The hare has been out front throughout the race, and just like in a fairy tale, the tortoise walks over the finish line to victory.

    Empty arguments never win.

    Checkered flag of victory goes to Jim.
    White flag goes to…….surrender, doesn’t it?

    Choose YOUR flag of citizenship below:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_flags#Summary

48. Julio C. Reyes
    July 21st, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Danny,

    Did you read what I wrote. Over 50% of the population is saying get me somebody else and the systems can not accommodate us. Worse yet, from the people that vote (maybe including you) when they are asked do you think we got the best person for the job they usually said:

    1. No, I only pick the one from my party because the other party is worse.
    2. No, I only pick the less bad of the two choices.

    Do you really think that me doing exactly the same is going to chance things around. Talking about wishful thinking and spontaneous generation.

    Just for the record, how do I make my political contribution. No, I do not participate in the picking process. However, every opportunity I have I DEMAND from public officials to serve the Citizens of this country.

    I get informed I pass the message and I remember the public officials that their responsibility is to SERVE.

    See in a game we need rules and regulations, players, referees, couches and assistants. No, I do not play the game per se but I bring the water to the sidelines, clean the field after the game. How? Presenting facts, exposing propaganda and I let the players decide.

    I know it is difficult to understand that people choices are important. Some are vegetarian, some are not. Some drive cars and some walk. Some Vote and some not. But just because I do not vote that does not mean I am not watching and I am not looking at the political process.

    The funny thing is some of the people that vote then idolize their choices. Me in the other hand I only see them as people (politicians) that should be SERVING no idolatry is allowed. How you like that? You choose to do a job, you better do it right or else.

    By the way, feel free to write my name again when quoting me. I guess your tantrum had lasted this time longer than I expected

49. George Vietze
    July 22nd, 2008 at 6:59 am

    Does Erie have the “will” and the “heart” to come together and have a say in the outcome of the future of the area? Funny thing, everyone likes a winner, as most people talk about what Erie is not doing, there is progress on many fronts as Erie moves toward its future.

    GE is making major strides in its global business and is giving signals that Erie is an important place in GE’s future, The Kanzius Cancer center is making major local strides as the local medical community joined forces to consider Erie as a major site for human trials research which would have a major economic impact on this area as well as national and international spotlight and another opportunity to market the assets of this area nationwide and worldwide.

    Outside investors are begining to see the potential of Erie. The Jacobs family who owns the Cleveland Indians has made a pitch to sizeable increase its stock holding in MTR, the company that owns the Presque isle Downs and Casino. Jacobs Entertainment holdings include a casino in Colorado, a racetrack in Virginia and other holdings obviously see the future potential of the Erie area. Ted Arneault, current president of MTR has already announced that he is not renewing his contract and will leave in December. Jacobs has made an offer to purchase the stock holdings of Arneault. Jacobs reputation with the horse industry indicates that focus will be on expanding the race horse impact in this area as Presque Isle Downs is on its way to being the Churchill Downs of Pa.

    My point is, things are moving forward in the Erie area and as it becomes more and more obvious that the world is catching on to the opportunites that this “little town” is on its way to becoming a major economic factor in Pennsylvania. As this information becomes public and more and more events surface the “will” will become stronger and stronger and more people will not want to miss the opportunity to show support for “their” community.

    Unless the citizens come together and take control of its own future it will will take longer to make the changes that need to be made. Those changes need to be influenced by the community.

    As we enter this global recession, Erie will not be unaffected, but Erie is in a better position that most communities in that the real estate abuses are not as significant in this market as it is in most of the other markets nationwide, GE Transportation is doing significantly better than most companies, our medical community is doing well. Our tourist industry should benefit becuase Erie is demographically located with great road access to a large population area that will be attracted to this area rather than more distant areas. This area is less affected by major natural disasters like floods, huricanes although it is not unheard of for tornadoes to locate here, they are not a significant problem. This area starts to look better and better, the problem is only a relatively few people really understand the potential of the area.
    The word is spreading, don’t be the last one to jump on the band-wagon. When the opportunity presesnts itself the community needs you to get involved and support the changes YOU want to see happen.
    When Envision Erie makes its move, they need your participation, they will get funding from major sources, they need your support for the changes that need to be made for a better future, it just takes showing up for the meetings and participating in the discussions and leaving your imprint on the community. This will be a grass-roots opportunity to show the “will” of the community. Make a difference, if the community “shows-up” the future will change. Create your own destiny, don’t leave it for “someone else”, you saw what transpires when that happens. Walk the walk…..and add value to talk..the talk…

50. Julio C. Reyes
    July 23rd, 2008 at 12:56 am

    Jim,

    You said:

    “”””Lost my respect. “”””””

    I want to write this post because as I said before Labor is only one part of the equation.

    You might want to do some reading and find out what the guy from Nissan is saying about the automotive industry in the US these days. I guess this link might confirm my theory about why VW choose Tennessee rather than PA to open their new plant.

    Keep in mind that apparently Nissan has two plants in that State.

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/nissan-ceo-industry-ripe-consolidation/