by Peter Panepento
Ian Enterline’s post on The People Demand It! about the vacant retail buildings along West 12th Street by the Peninsula, near West 38th and Liberty streets, and on East 38th Street and Pine Avenue raises some interesting questions.
It also introduces a topic we haven’t talked much about in this venue — namely the hollowing out of Erie’s inner core.
We’ve spent a lot of time talking about the efforts to spruce up and revitalize downtown (and that is a crucial effort).
But we haven’t paid much attention to the next ring of development surrounding downtown before we reach the wealthier suburbs.
Many of the vacancies alluded to in Ian’s piece are the direct result of the retail development boom on upper Peach Street and the shift in wealth from the edges of the city into Millcreek, Summit, Fairview and the like.
For decades, places like Liberty Plaza were central to folks who were doing their weekly grocery shopping, their trips to the drug store and to specialty shops like jewelry stores and sporting goods operations.
But many of those folks with disposable income have moved out of that part of town and into bigger homes in the burbs. And the retail explosion on upper Peach Street has attracted all of those dollars.
The stores that remained in the inner ring have slowly struggled and died — leaving behind the carcasses of buildings that have no demand.
I fear that situation will only worsen for awhile. As more anchors like Value City leave town, shoppers have fewer reasons to trek to the remaining stores in those areas.
Soon, the vacancies will creep further out from the inner ring and the sprawl into the suburbs will continue.
The hope, of course, is that the redevelopment of Erie’s downtown will bring growth to the region’s core and will spread out into the outer reaches of the city limits, pushing up demand for real estate in areas like Liberty Plaza and along East 38th Street.
But that, my friends, is likely to be a long process.
After more than six years working as a journalist in Erie, I'm now the web editor for the Chronicle of Philanthropy in Washington, D.C., and the publisher of GlobalErie.com. I still maintain close ties to Erie - a community that I care about deeply. I hope this Web site can help inspire a better future for Erie.
Jim
July 8th, 2008 at 10:46 am
This raises an interesting subject, and one of the reasons behind my suggesting posting the tax liability by municipality. For an example, lets take a 150′ x 150′ retail building which would equal 22,500 square feet, and say it was assessed at a low $40.00/sq. ft. giving it an assessed value of $900,000.00.
The last chart I had listed the total tax rates for 2007 as
Erie City 0.0334687 x $900,000.00 = $30,121.83
Millcreek 0.0215494 x $900,000.00 = $19,394.46, 35.6% less than Erie
Summit 0.0192100 x $900,000.00 = $12,832.83, 42.6% less than Erie
This is before you take into consideration any competitive effect of LERTA’s or other tax abatement program. I am constantly amazed by the ability of inner city businesses, who are not benefiting from tax subsidization, to stay in business given the uncompetitive nature of locating within the city limits.
And this is before considering other overhead costs of doing business, like insurance, water and sewer rates, waste disposal and the rest.
I maintain that Erie is simply not cost competitive with surrounding municipalities, which is why I suspect any project in the city is so dependent upon pubic subsidy which in turn increases the non competitiveness.
I realize this is an over simplistic example, and that to a big box store a $12k difference in real estate tax is not going to be the only reason for closing a store, but it most assuredly is a factor, especially if they are having to compete for traffic with other stores, with LERTA’s, etc.
This same argument can be made relative to housing. Without the LERTA going for it, could the Mercantile project be marketed in Erie, when taxes on a two bedroom condo would exceed those of a good sized single family residence in the suburbs. People are generally not willing to pay more for poorer performing schools and municipal services out of a desire for an urban setting. The opposite is more likely.
Up to now, discussions relative to the non competitiveness of the Erie have centered around the ease of solving the problem by increasing costs in the surrounding municipalities, rather than finding ways to control costs in the city. MIllcreek’s school board has certainly bought into the spending mentality, and I submit that on 12th Street, both sides of Pittsburgh Ave. illustrate the result.
Notice that all of these costs have nothing whatsoever to do with private labor costs. When talking about jobs, labor costs are productivity related. But overhead costs can make or break the location decision. If your location is not competitive, labor costs don’t matter, as Erie has shown with labor costs approximately 20% below national averages.
Public labor costs, however, are an entirely different situation, again as Erie has shown by their inability to control costs, especially in the binding arbitration arena.
The city’s non competitive nature is a drag on the entire region, and increasing that non competitiveness through ever increasing public spending, as we have been doing, and continue to propose, is not solving the problem. We need new ways of thinking about how to make the entire community more competitive, and you don’t accomplish that through increased spending in my opinion.
Danny Lucas
July 8th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Nice try Jim.
You are talking tax rates, at variance ,and the effect on competitiveness.
I know zip on the actual figures you use, …..and do not use.
But, I have a hunch that 22,500 sq.ft of space in the Millcreek Mall goes for an assessment far greater than an assessment of 22,500 feet on 23rd and Holland St. To use your flat assessment of $40 a square ft in all 3 cases leads to the results you desire.
But I doubt it reflects what is going on
The Library wanted to close the Millcreek Mall spot because of high rents there. The assessment in Millcreek was apparently high.
I would add that taxes could NOW be incurred, on the new operator of the same sq ft place as the library.
How much would rent be for the Presque Isle Library Branch if it moved across the STREET? It is on West Erie Plaza and the Pittsburgh Avenue delineates Erie to the East, and Millcreek to the West.
Would the library be better off in the Case Management Building
(now closed) across the street in Erie? Or stay put in Millcreek across the street from Case Management? I dunno.
But using an assessment figure that reflects the assessed value of the locale would enhance your case, Jim.
On waste disposal, I agree with you.
A gal asked me to install 2 toilet seats for her. I did.
(WAIT til you see our new Chinese seats; they are CRAP!)
I was going to pitch the used seats and boxes in the garbage.
Shrieks went out. “Erie won’t take those in the garbage” she informed!
“Whaaat???”
Guess where those toilet seats ended up before they ended up at the same place Erie garbage goes? This is bizarre. Tho I could fill a whole post on garbage removal styles in each community.
(Hint: Edinboro is an expensive place to live….2% local income tax!
The only place in the county to need that. The University is the source of water use, garbage, police need, you name it. the locals pay for it since the place is tax free).
“What a country” says Yakoff.
Revitalizing Erie « Politics of the Common Good
July 8th, 2008 at 11:43 am
[...] 8, 2008 · No Comments Peter Panepento, writing at the Outside Erie blog, writes about a problem that’s overlooked in the effort to reenergize downtown Erie. [...]
Wizo
July 8th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Check out this article in the Wall Street Journal.
Some communities have caught on to the efficiencies created by promoting increased density. Assuming energy prices continue to rise, the way we live has to change. How soon will our elected officials realize and embrace the concepts of smart-growth, shared resources, mass transportation, etc.?
The suburban model that exists in the US is entirely inefficient. Jane Jacobs’ ideas were laughed at decades ago; yet now they seem fresh and inspiring to me. Say a business decides to (re)locate within the city…perhaps the tax disparities will initially be offset by decreased transportation costs and proximity to supply chains. Later, as others catch on to the benefits of density, tax disparities become an advantage.
Then, the suburban model exists for only those that can afford it. The business sectors that foresee these developments in advance will surely benefit from their trend forecasting for decades to come.
George Vietze
July 8th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Ian’s and Jim’s comments are comprehensive and further emphasize the fractured interests that need to come together or at least understand the different demographics in order to adjust their “plan” to compete on a comprehensive basis.
On June 26, I attended a meeting of a new group being formed called E vision Erie whose purpose is to engage and mobilize citizens and organizations with cross jurisdictional collaborative efforts that employ bottom-up, all inclusive thinking, plans and actions to transform community and creat a vibrant future to improve Erie County.
Their Introduction: The challenges in community today are so interconnected that elected officials, civic and business leaders, human service professionals, and concerned citizens cannot solve tem independently. Community problems require community-wide solutions and actions. Community leaders must consciously work together to put in place cross-juriisdicctional collaborative efforts to engage citizensand enable them to take broad responsibility for and ownership of their communities. In this way, truly concerted efforts can be made to improve the whole of the community for all citizens, and objectives for economic and community development can be achieved.
Envision Erie is the means to this end.
The initial meeting on June 26 was to form a steering committee and
modify goals and objectives and move forward with implementing the program.
Envision Erie was organized by Alan R. Kugler and Renee Lamis of PA Futures. Information on this group: alankugler@pafutures.org or reneelamis@pafutures.org Their web page http://www.pafutures.org
The outline of this group was posted in a prior post by me in a thread about the Power People in Erie.
The group purports to be non-political in its agenda, the meeting had members from all range of interested citizens from personal interests, organizational interests, a council member of the City of Erie, people from educational interests etc., it seems to be a substantial approach to regionalize the thinking for the benefit of all.
Wizo
July 8th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
George,
Envison Erie has been around for over a year and prior to that met under the name SAM & ED. Though, it was more of a product of SAM & ED.
Jim
July 8th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
I set my example the way I did because assessments are a county function, not a municipal one, and the last reassessment was done, in the name of economic development, with a methodology to transfer more of the cost of government from industrial and commercial zoning classifications onto residential, irrespective of the harm done to credit equity. I cited the $40.00 / sg. ft. because as I understand it, that was the average, and it compares at the time to a range of $90.00 – 120.00 / sq. ft. in new construction costs. I also used the example, because at the time of the reassessment, we changed to a 100% of the assessed value to millage application, as opposed to a lessor percentage. (In my case, previous tax was based upon only 40% of the assessed value.) We were told at the time, correctly or incorrectly is for you to determine, that the same assessment formula was to have been used county wide. As we know from the Millcreek School District appeals, there is not agreement on that point, and I think the only consensus that was ever reached on the reassessment was that other than provide a mechanism for taxing bodies to achieve the maximum 10% aggregate increase allowable under state law, it was a flop. I say that because the whole project was designed to simply extract more money from property owners, in municipalities that were reaching their taxing limit under state law. It had nothing to do with fairness, or accuracy, as the resulting appeals illustrated. However, the increased extraction of dollars from the economy did indeed have an impact on competitiveness, and because of the city total property tax burden, hit harder there, especially residentially, where a number of home owners saw their bills more than double, while at the same time saw millage rates reduced, and never understood what happened. That was understandable, since even the taxing bodies themselves were confused, and the Erie School District had to reduce their applicable percentages down from 100% that first year because they set their millage so high the revenue would have exceeded the 10% aggregate increase limitation.
This, despite comments to the contrary, impacts the availability of credit for private development, as it is extremely hard to line up credit for any project that will not be worth its construction costs, once assessed under the existing formula. Just look at how many projects, even with public subsidies have died for lack of private financing in the past several years. When you figure the lost tax dollars, real and potential revenue, the result has been unacceptable in my estimation, and new thinking is required.
My point is that concentrating on ways to simply extract more total dollars out of the economy has been counterproductive for years, and the uneven tax rates make it extremely difficult to market the region. Continual proposals for public subsidy of development projects in the city, over decades now, has not only not improved the local economy, it has added to the non competitive nature within the city. And made credit harder to come by as well.
I maintain that the empty buildings, and vacant land is there as a result of a lot of misguided government action and policy, and this is just one example.
Finally I believe to make good comparisons you have to compare apples to apples. In Erie we hate doing that, preferring to compare apples and oranges, protecting the status quo via the confusion created. The fact remains that identically assessed value properties are taxed at hugely different rates within Erie County, and the average tax payer simply does not have easy access to the total impact of those variances.
James A
July 8th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
To Wizo’s first point … that is applicable in most cities. But, as of 2003 (http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/Ranking/2003/pdf/R04T050.pdf) Erie County ranked 221 of the 233 US counties with 250,000 inhabitants or more – the average commute was 18 minutes. Yes, relocating in closer to the city would save some gas. But since Erie’s commute is so short to begin with, the actual amount saved wouldn’t be all that much. The shorter the average commute, the higher gas prices have to go to make people want to move in (all else equal).
john morris
July 8th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Commute times are a very crude measure of convenience and auto dependency, what matters is the total number of car trips needed per day per family. In tighter mixed use areas with transit, it might be close to zero, while in a typical suburb it’s something close to 7-8 trips a day. Kids, to school– perhaps several schools, every trip for groceries, eating out, entertainment, Kids sports etc… Of course there are malls and Walmarts, but they are usually a sad replacement for the dense variety of activities and conveniences in a city.
Japan is the developed nation best adapted to a high energy world and a prime reason has to do with the convenient way most people live.
“This dependence on imports has prodded the nation into tremendous achievements in improved efficiency. France and Germany, where government crusades against global warming have become increasingly loud, expend almost 50 percent more energy to produce the equivalent of $1 in economic activity. Britain’s energy use, on the same measure, is nearly double; the United States nearly triple; and China almost eight times as much.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/04/business/worldbusiness/04energy.html
It’s not that sprawl doesn’t happen there but what goes on is logical– Large factories, and industrial uses are usualy not in the central urban areas.
I’ve been reading up on the Pittsburgh region’s history and it also sprawled at first mostly because large scale plants and facilities were to dificult and expensive to build and operate in the central areas of town. The first Pittsburgh Renaisance was tied to the movement of some of the most noxious industrial stuff out of the core. But it never made the proper moves needed to create infill residential and office development needed to make the next step up.
Putting extreme noxious land uses in the core of a city is pretty nuts. What effect can this have on land values and the total tax base.
Dale Hannah
July 8th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Just ask anyone who lives in Avalon or Bellevue about all the noxious emissions from the Nevell Island plants and what it can do for property value, as well as the obvious health issues. Now we’re in a position to stop a class 5 polluter from being built in the midst of a dense residential area. Who do you think will win out in the end??????
john morris
July 8th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Since NYC is the part of America that most resembles Japan in terms of density, transit use and lifestyle, I think it might make a good place to look at. Comparing it to the rest of America is easy — that would be New Jersey.
People might remember, the chart, I think Peter put up on the effects of fuel prices in different regions and that NYC scored very highly — relative to the very bad performance of most other places.
But, NYC also seems to be holding up in terms of it’s real estate market with almost all the weakness centered on it’s lowest density suburban type areas like Staten Island. The cities surging infill development has created a virtuous cycle, as convenience rises throughout the city, further pushing up real estate prices.
NYC is also attracting residents — because of it’s relatively low residential property taxes. It’s hard to pin down but there seems to be something deeply, structurally wrong with suburban town finances. It’s not like, NYC has a small, or frugal government, instead it seems to have a mode of development that maximizes the revenue generated from it’s land, while at the same time minimising it’s infrastructure costs. This is the opposite of most of New Jersey.
“Between 2002 and 2007, property-tax collections went from $16 billion to $22.1 billion – a 38 percent jump caused largely by the ballooning costs of running schools and towns. That increase was more than double the inflation rate in the same period. And, yes, that was with rebates included.”
Sprawl and municipal fragmentation work together to create a nightmare.
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080629_In_N_J___struggling_under_burden.html
spoon
July 8th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Dale, I moved from Bellevue last year (after 5 years) and it’s not as bad as it used to be. It’s more Corapolis and McKees Rocks that get the brunt of the factories still remaining. I personally like going to Neville Island to play hockey and curling – http://www.rmuislandsports.org/
Bellevue is trying to make it as an artsy area with the help of Jesse at the Creative Treehouse and Sam at Vivo but with Bellevue being a dry borough it’s tough for a serious restaurant businesses to come in and take it seriously. I do miss everything being within walking distance.
cheers!
Dale Hannah
July 8th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Spoon, do you by any chance know Regis Hungerman, from Avalon? My daughter Robin is married to his son. Anyway, I was just down there for his funeral on Wednesday, and yes, Bellevue does seem to be cleaning up a bit- hope it continues to improve.
Hope to see you this weekend at the RBB conference. I can’t wait to try some of the craft brews at BrewErie!
john morris
July 8th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Braddock, PA might be one of the best examples of my point. Braddock is the location of Andrew Carnegie’s first steel mill and once had a poulation of 20,000. The mill is actually stll operating but almost nobody wants to live near it. The tiny town is now almost a ghost town.
“Today, two blast furnaces (Furnaces No.1 and No. 3) continue in operation at the Edgar Thomson Steel Works, which remains part of U.S. Steel. In 2005, the mill produced 2.8 million tons of steel, equal to 28% of U.S. Steel’s domestic production. The mill employs about 900 persons, some of whom belong to the second or third generations of their families to work in the mill.[8]
Among improvements to its physical plant is a $250 million continuous caster, which converts liquid steel directly into slabs, installed in 1992.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braddock,_Pennsylvania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Thomson_Works
Radio Free JoJo
July 9th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Jim’s points regarding the total disparity in tax rates between the municipalities is well taken. However, if you take the long view, probably the area that will be in the most significant decline is not the urban core, but the immediate ring around Erie: Millcreek, Wesleyville, and Lawrence Park. Because the whole metro area is experiencing zero wealth and population growth, those areas that do not have state and federal programs estabished to subsidize infrastructure and economic development are sure to suffer. Add to that the ineviability of the suburbs’ taxes to sky rocket as they add professional fire protection and build out additional water and sewer to accomodate the sprawl. Meanwhile, as the generations turn, gentrification is bound to come to Erie’s urban core, lessening the value of the “big house in the suburbs.” The empty shells of the West Erie Plaza and Harborcreek Mall are just the beginning.
For the sake of our community’s survival, somebody needs to begin a serious regionalism conversation, and it needs to start from the suburban perspective first. Be thinking 2020, not 2009.
Danny Lucas
July 9th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Given the conclusion of Radio Free Jo Jo and Jim on taxation in Erie County, I can only conclude there is more than one Erie County in Pennsylvania.
Jim has previously outlined credit equity ramifications of assesstment policy. I’ll buy that.
Much of the rest is seriously flawed thought.
Revisionist history is made when Jim says:
“the last reassessment was done, in the name of economic development, with a methodology to transfer more of the cost of government from industrial and commercial zoning …”
The last reassessment was not done in the name of economic development.
The reassessment was done at the order of a local judge. Why?
The assessment prior to that was done in 1969. Millcreek had a lot of rural area back then
(Lou Tullio had yet to run water out to Summit to create the Millcreek Mall mess and destroy downtown Erie).
Primo homes were built in what used to be boondocks, and carried boondock assessment values. A judge found disparity of taxation a boo-boo and ORDERED reassessment. He did not give a whit about economic development.
The Japanes were hitting us hard industrially in the 1970’s. Local industry began to flex muscle on THEIR behalf, beginning with Reagan firing air traffic controllers, the deathknell of unions in the USA.
Those macro variables (and more) combined with an activist judge, saying the assessment used by our politcians, does not add up legally, began a long series of reassessment hope, possibility, drama, and appeal.
It was an attorney dream come true.
GE was one of the first to use assessment policy to improve the bottom line. They closed production of some buildings (Bldg. 13 if I recall, but I could be wrong on which building). Anyway, the system at GE years ago was feast and famine. They ran full throttle or laid folks off as orders rose and ebbed. When production was stopped and a building closed for work, GE asked for and got a lower assessment since THAT part of the operations was nonproducing. This was ludicrous.
It would be like Erie County landlords going to the assessment board and claiming that they had no tenant in a given period, so reassess my house lower please.
(sidebar: landlords have less clout than GE; don’t bother).
Economic development was not the catalyst of reassessment; a judge was. And it was fought to the merriment of our most productive sector,…the lawyers.
Radio’s assertion of which area of the county will decline, and which will rise, over time is scary too. If any area declines, we ALL hurt. If any area rises, we ALL benefit. This reminds me of Pat Howard licking his chops for 4 decades, and still counting, on Millcreek going into decline ala Erie central. We, reading this, will all be dead before that happens.
Jim, my difficulty in swallowing your thesis is 2 areas:
1) If the state determines the max of tax via property, local municipals can tinker with millage and any game they want. The top is the top and the state sets it. Rates and valuations can vary to infinity (even within a locale), but the top number is the top number and arriving at it does not matter how. They ALL arrive at the top taxation under the law.
2) Property tax and assessment is a whopper of a small slice of total taxation. I have already mentioned that Edinboro is the only municipality in the county to command 2% tax on local income.
Look at your local tax last year. If you lived in Edinboro, you would now cut them a new check precisely DOUBLE the amount (2% vs 1% anywhere).
Surely income taxes are part of the equation in corporate life as well as in the life of property owner.
Total taxation from all sectors is surely viewed by any economic development planned PRIOR to implementation, not just the
0.XXXXXXX figure ratio on property tax noted above by Jim in a given municipality.
In a new direction, the state spent a whopper of money on a stadium in Pittsburgh—-public funds. But like Carl Icahn at Hammermill, a new investor is buying the Steelers, and the franchise will no longer be in Rooney hands as of this week. Let these investors put up the funds for risk. God knows they put up the funds to reap profits.
Government CAN NOT be the end all game for economic development.
FDR tried every public scheme he could devise to end unemployment in the Great Depression. Build dams, TVA, infrastructure, spend like a banshee on a honeymoon. None of it worked. Government could not accumulate enough deficit spending to get the economy going.
it took World War II production to get the economy in gear….military production.
(We keep that game going by blowing up other countries now and doing no-bid contracts to rebuild “infrastructure” somemore).
I also believe that any comparison to Erie and NYC is laughable with the possible exception that people in both cities have red blood, tho they are blue states.
Jim
July 9th, 2008 at 10:55 am
I can agree to a certain extent, but as I see it, the biggest factor in the tax situation has been, and continues to be in the education area. The 2007 tax rate sheet I have for example, shows Erie schools at 0.0170687, Millcreek at 0.0141400, and Summit at 0.0135600. While it is the same as the initial example in that Millcreek is less than Erie, and Summit is less than Millcreek, the rates are smaller. And this doesn’t take into account the state revenue formula which does not distribute revenue equally, in terms of a percentage of total spend. So Erie, which has the highest tax rate, also gets the most state money both in terms of total dollars, and as a percentage of spend.
Regionalism needs to start with education, but no district will consider a merger with a district that will end up reducing the state revenue they receive. For example, that was a prime reason for the failure of the Fairview/Girard merger years ago, and the state revenue spread today is wider than it was then. So in fact what we have is state government standing in the way of regionalism in the area of highest tax cost, not withstanding the fact that local spending is out of control to begin with.
One district gets 20 – 30% state dollars, leaving 70 – 80% local effort, while right next door they get 50 – 60% state dollars, leaving 40 – 50% local effort. Those two will never merge. Since education costs more than county and municipality combined generally, without education involved municipal actions are just nipping at the edges of the potential.
When you add together all the taxing bodies in Pennsylvania, and the conflicting regulation, and enforcement you start to see one of the reasons we have a difficult time attracting investment in Pennsylvania, and doing regional marketing. We need state leadership in this and are not getting it. Not asking for it either.
However, my point was that by increasing local burden through public spending projects, we have only increased local effort costs, debt service, etc, which just adds to the problem. The more we’ve spent the worse its gotten, and we don’t seem to understand why.
john morris
July 9th, 2008 at 10:57 am
I think there’s s big national trend in terms of decay in inner ring suburbs. There are three big factors at work which interact with each other.
In cities that are large metro areas, a lot of single family suburban type development exists in the city itself and can lean on the rest of the cities tax base. Cities like LA, Las Vegas, Pheonix, Columbus Ohio and Indianapolis are kind of like this. They have some breathing room.
NYC is also a city that includes a solid chuck of it’s bedroom communities within the city limits. Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and the Bronx lean heavily on the taxes paid by the dense offices/residential /retail property in Manhattan.
In other areas, there is an evolutionary process in which new central core areas of density develop in corridors. Some suburbs decay, but some build up their density levels and really become cities or towns. I think that sort of thing is happening somewhat in Northern Virginia, Alexandria, has evolved into a real small city. NYC is developing as a city with 5 or six different core areas from Jamacia and Flushing in Queens to Downtown Brooklyn, Long Island City and Williamsburg
If there are rail lines, like in Connecticut, Long Island and the East Philly suburbs one has a chance for the evolution back to towns along rail lines and street car suburbs. Almost all of the old rail line towns in Connecticut like Stamford and New Haven are seeing developments and condos coming in.
Danny Lucas
July 9th, 2008 at 11:26 am
There you go again!
Now, it is not property tax that is a spur/no spur to economic development.
This time, it is a “slice” of the property tax that remains the villain; to wit, the education folks commonly known as School Tax.
I think this arbitray singling out a culprit (”It is dem folks who cause the evil we is in!”) and mixing the batch up that causes delay in facing reality.
We are engaged in global dramatics here.
Erie is competing for life against a global world.
It would be nice if our municipalities, and state, could align with our federal system and maybe advocate us versus them thinking, but even that would be flawed. It focuses on winners and losers somewhere.
The very best we can hope for is to clean up our own backyard and hope the world engages in the same task for their parts of the globe.
But we can’t.
The state controls the cards on taxes; and a significant bunch of ill thought-out-spending, to either develop economically, or curry favor with voters/contract winners–for donations.
It is a mess.
We build new schools, instead of repairing the old ones and attempt maintenance, due to state reimbusements. You get a higher reimbursement to build than to fix. THAT contributes to the build, build, build complex in our school system, and hence, whopper school taxes.
Welcome to PA.
We do very well in this forum pointing out all the flaws.
Let’s swing a new direction and consider solutions that we CAN control.
Anything else is like putting a tooth under the pillow and hoping for a GlobalErie fairy to fix us. It’ll take more than a dollar under the pillow tomorrow morning, and all of our collective teeth, to fix this mess.
Jim
July 9th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Danny, I don’t know where you come up with some of your opinions. The last reassessment was done on a judges order. True. However, the county then went out and hired a consultant to develop a proprietary assessment formula, which when applied transferred more of the cost of government from industrial and commercial zoning classifications onto residential zoning classifications. Thats a fact. Look at Erie Insurance pre and post reassessment. Look at the Erie Times, and other city industrial and commercial properties, and what happened to their tax bills. That formula was developed to lower the cost of doing business. What is did was artificially remove millions of dollars worth of credit equity, using the rule of thumb of credit equity being equal to 80% of unencumbered assessed value. Thats a fact. As a result, it costs more to build in Erie than the assessed value when complete. Thats a fact that has hit a number of projects, hard. Parade Street store for example. Unable to secure private financing as it’s assessed value would be dramatically less than the construction costs. This has necessitated the need for public subsidies to get most projects going. Assuming they actually do move. Koehler didn’t. Mercantile has, so far.
My complaint is that the massive increases in public spending have done nothing to improve the economic foundation of either the city, or the region. We are told that as the city goes, so goes the region, yet for all the money spent, primarily in the city, it has not helped either build up the economic foundation. All the spending has accomplished economically is to increase the annual amount of subsidy required to keep the growing list of “regional assets” functioning, as the latest county vote on spending the gaming revenue illustrates. While some of these projects may add to the quality of life, and are nice to have, they do not make our economy any fundamentally stronger. It is a question of want versus need. We are spending enormous amounts of money on things we want, ignoring things we actually need, and could provide a return on investment to the taxpayer.
While the state may control the distribution of state revenues, they do not control the amount of overall spending. Those are local decisions. Locally we want no limitations on spending, while at the same time harboring the unrealistic expectation for the state to pick of half the cost whatever it is. That hasn’t worked, doesn’t work, and won’t work in the future. The state share, in percentage, has declined in direct proportion to the increase in spending, controlled at the local level. State revenue allocations on education increase every year, yet the percentage of total spend declines because local decisions are increasing spending at a faster pace than revenue is growing. That has been an Erie way of life, especially since Tullio, who by the way, got his start in, of all places, education. You have to remember that educations out of control spending, with tax rates exceeding the municipal rate puts pressure on the municipality to hold their spending down, with an effect on public safety spending as an example.
One problem we have in Erie, is that a smaller portion of the population actually pays taxes, than in surrounding municipalities, and they don’t care what the rates are, or how it impacts anyone else. Renters, a lot of seniors, etc do not directly pay real estate tax, and don’t understand or care about the impact it can have. But lenders sure care about tax and assessments. People in the surrounding municipalities see that disconnect and decide they don’t want to be a part of it, and it makes regionalism just that much harder to achieve.
What is really needed first, is an interest on the part of the general public in learning what the status quo actually is, and how it impacts them. In conversations I have, I am convinced that the majority have very little accurate knowledge, yet that doesn’t prevent them from having very strong, usually economically challenged, opinions, which they are not bashful about sharing.
We are competing globally. And it is getting tougher all the time. What we shouldn’t be doing is making poor local decisions that make the situation worse, yet that is exactly what we have done, and are continuing to do.
Danny Lucas
July 9th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Danny Lucas
July 9th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Given the conclusion of ~~~~~
Jim has previously outlined credit equity ramifications of assesstment policy. I’ll buy that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim, that is the part of my comment where I agree with you.
If you wonder where I got the opinion, look in the mirror.
However, the extended repeat of assessment (in error I might add) is far from the culprit. And finding more culprits does not change the equation toward greater resolution. Even YOU say we do the same mistakes here in Erie over and over.
I never quibble with isolated math that is common here at globalerie. Any numbers can be stuck in, to make up any position and “prove it”. I yawn.
But in a larger view, when I see statements like this false assertion:
—-” Renters, a lot of seniors, etc do not directly pay real estate tax, and don’t understand or care about the impact it can have. But lenders sure care about tax and assessments”—-
~~~~~ Jim
I shake my head in disbelief.
All renters know that their rent reflects taxes.
Indeed, taxes are “marked up” to renters. A profit has to be made by the rentee. ALL costs are marked up or the rentee gets to break even. It does not work that way at all. Renters provide landlords a profit ot the whole system breaks down. If ANYONE knows the effect of dubious taxation, it is renters who pay a premium on those passed-along taxes, plus a profit margin on THAT.
If the assessment was so drastically out of error, I am sure a judge would be called in to rule on unfair taxation anew. THAT is what brought on the first assessment post 1969 data anyway.
But the contention of this post is “THE HOLLOWING OUT OF ERIE”.
We are not talking building new buildings at a cost per foot greater than a new assessment allows as prudent. Much of the lender hedging is tied toward the national mortgage fiasco too. The savings and loan people had their turn at greed; the DOT.coms too; then, Wall Street, Enron, and lately Mortgage folks swindle all of us and everyone winks ok. Surprise, oil companies are doing it right now. Oh my!.
We have a pile of buildings STANDING that are perfectly usable, but empty. If your assertion that these gems are assessed too low, to foster economic development by favoring commercial and industrial over residential dwelling, by YOUR reasoning, these empty buildings should be ripe cherries ready to be picked, and businesses flocking for this cheap assessment on them.
Somehow, that ain’t working Jim.
Either businesses are totally foolish these days, or the theory needs a rework.
Now, in terms of looking forward, instead of backward, we are all aware that reassessment is a real goofy proposition.
There is also a suspicion that if you have enough money, reassessment can be a good thing for you.
I propose a new form of reassessment.
When a place is sold, that is the value of the place. The real world has place a value based on buyer and seller. I propose that the actual sale price be used as an assessment value.
Further, I propose that the given sale price remain the assessed value until a sale takes place again. That new sale price becomes the new assessed value automatically for the new resident. Prices for assessed value will fluctuate all over the county for every sale that occurs.
For businesses and commercial folks, the longer you stay put and do business, the lower your “real” assessed value becomes over time.
inflation alone is beat by this.
But when Horne’s sells their store and Bon Ton buys it, WHAM! The assessment goes up on that part of the owners property.
Erie County would become more business/commercial attractive in varying spots as buyers choose. But the real benefit is a continual updating of the true assessment value on any given property.
The added benefit? If you stay put, your costs are a known for the long term. That value sticks until you sell.
I think residential folks would like this too.
Assessments will continually occur if for no other reason than moving folks and those who choose to die. A sale occurs; an assessment is updated.
Now Jim, this is not a panacea to Erie blight, but we begin to shift from what Lou Tullio did wrong to what all of us can do now to change the staus quo to a pleasant and growing quo. Whoa!
Wizo
July 9th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
James A
I moved downtown for two reasons:
1. save money on gas because I want to spend it at #2
2. great locally owned places, within walking distance, to eat and drink downtown
I save 5-7 minutes on my commute from my previous residence in Millcreek. That adds up for me. With schools loans to payback, every penny counts. Since I moved, I now can even afford to eat at Latino’s occasionally. My roommate, who works downtown and walks everyday, only drives once a week to go grocery shopping. That saves him enough to have convinced him as well. Neither of us cared about census figures or average commutes when considering our options, we just knew it would be less driving when we did this three years ago. Now, all of our friends are trying to find apartments downtown with little luck.
Jim
July 9th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Regarding rent and taxes, what percentage of Erie rental units are payed 100% by the renter, and not subsidized by the government in some form or fashion, section 8 or otherwise? Whether taxes are included in the rent or not is one thing, but whether the rent actually being paid is truly reflective of the actual cost is something else entirely.
As for renters providing landlords a profit, I agree thats the way the system is supposed to work. But it doesn’t. Landlords are not getting rich in Erie. To the contrary, many are barely able to keep their heads above water. Many more are having difficulty collecting rents, and utilities, as recent water and sewer service threats have illustrated.
I personal friend of mine owns several rental properties in Erie, and is only breaking even on them, has been trying to sell them, and has had no success in over a year. Those that want them cannot get the financing, and those that don’t need the financing don’t want them. His properties are not in a government subsidized program. If they were, where the government essentially provided the profit margin, he would have less trouble selling. He knows of several others former landlords who have gotten out of the rental business, with one opting for demolition to reduce the property, in hopes of making it more valuable, or at least easier to sell.
And I really question what will happen to Erie’s rental market, of newer units, when the LERTA’s used to construct them expire, and the adjusted tax rates must then be built into the rental fees. If the government doesn’t increase the housing subsidies, or the Erie job market doesn’t improve, Erie could be facing some severe housing problems in the next few years. With property values essentially stagnant in Erie (I’ll have to agree that is a much better situation than some other parts of the country which have seen dramatic declines in value) I fail to see how continuing to increase the cost of government will enhance the community ability to strengthen the economy.
Lending in Erie has been a problem since long before this latest housing crises hit. Our 20% lower than average wage scales have limited the size of loans residents qualify for. Loss of employment opportunities has hurt too. Banks wanting to maximize earnings on credit card fees and service fees hasn’t helped either. But then we have an authority, run at the time by the head of one of those banks, who refused to lend private financing to the initial convention center hotel project, with no second thoughts about asking the taxpayer to accept a risk the institution would not. I have a problem with that kind of development. If the private sector declines the risk, for fear of not being able to make money, you know the tax payer isn’t going to see an adequate return on investment. As soon as the county accepted that risk, it impacted their credit rating, and the effect was it raised the interest rate being paid on the bond issue, which costs all taxpayers. How does that strengthen our economy? My concern is we learned nothing from that, and that same authority is now wanting more money for an inadequate facility they run, owned by the state, that doesn’t generate enough revenue to maintain itself, let alone invest in expanding its capability. I have no doubt, the community will buy into more spending there as well, and that next year that same authority will probably need more total dollar subsidy than they do currently. How does that create an incentive for private investment in Erie?
Then comes the property tax reform at the state level, and while the county is contemplating how to spend their share, the taxpayer sits stagnant. My state property tax impact, through the school tax, could net me 1/2 tank of gas. Why? Because as soon as school districts found out what impact it would have, they raised spending accordingly, and zeroed out the impact.
I still maintain we have to get control on the rate of growth in government spending, and then shift focus on what we spend our money on, insisting on a quantifiable return on the taxpayers investment, that can be measured in real economic growth, and new revenue for taxing bodies, not just increased bills.
Danny Lucas
July 9th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
The Hollowing Out Of Erie.
We used to do that with castings to make finished goods out of foundry molten, now cooled, castings. And each piece was crafted by hand.
Soon, a semi-automatic could process the parts from start to finish with greater efficiency. Still, the casting had to be put into the “holding chuck” and a series of steps occurred as the parts swung clockwise in the Goss Machine — or was it Goss and Deleu?
The part would be grasped by the chucks at 12 o’clock position after a finished product had been removed. At 2 o’clock position, the base was shaved flush. Around 4 o’clock position, some drilling occurred.
By 6 o’clock position, some countersinking as tooling weaved in and out briskly.
By 8 o’clock position, tapping of bolt holes was done.
At 10 o’clock position, a finish up of a champfer, or outer edging, or planing, or milling of some sort made a finished good for this piece of bronze or copper casting.
Up she swung to 12 o’clock to be removed.
There were mini seconds now to remove that piece, toss it in a bin of “done”, and grab a new casting, install it in the chuck holder — properly positioned so that the chuck could align the piece to be machined precisely.
Everything could be stopped by putting your foot on a floor button, that would make the grasping chuck at 12 o’clock cease opertions.
It was a safety feature for the operator.
I remember watching the parts swing clockwise into place for exchange.
I remember shoving a new piece in and ejecting the finished part into a bin.
I remember repeating this step again and again as finished goods needed replaced by a starter at 12 o’clock.
“What is all that red?”, my brain flashed to me.
“Sure looks like blood, and a lot of it” my brain replied to me.
“What the heck is all that? It is mixing in with the coolant used on the drill and tap” said this internal conversation.
This conversation between me and me took about a billionth of a second, but I recall it all.
I pulled back from the semi-Automatic machine and looked down to see this blood on me too. My finger was bleeding. I calmly hit the stop button and walked the length of the aisle to the second shift foreman.
I lifted my hand up to him and said: “I think I need a Band-Aid!”
His face went white and my first thought was he must be upset that I am not making production quota. Better get back to the machine.
He yelled at me!
He screamed “YOU need MORE than a BAND-AID!”
I was relieved to know he was not ticked off about production goals.
I swung my hand around to see what all his fuss was about.
My legs began to wobble and I sunk to the ground as I looked at the missing tip of my finger, pumping out blood into the air instead of returning to my heart for an oxygen fill-up on-sale each second you breathe. You could see it better from the front, than from my angle.
I never felt the casting rip the top of my finger off as the chuck crushed it from both sides. I was busy doing my job. The floor button of protection had failed to do its job.
Imagine standing there calmly, continuing work, observing what was blood and soon concluding it is, shutting down the machine, walking to the foreman up the aisle, and discussing stuff…….
only to be told “YOU NEED MORE THAN A BAND-AID!
All the deferred pain came crushing to what should have been the tip of my finger, but could not be since it no longer was there.
The company doctor did a spiffy job taking a needle and thread and sewing my parts into a point. It looked like a Vulcan Ear ala Mr. Spock.
I never did find my finger nail as the coolant machine must have sucked it into some filter back by the goods I made. (Missed quota that night.)
For the record, Workman’s Comp has determined to a tee precisely what all your parts are worth. Lose an eye, or a hand, or two eyes, or two hand, it is all calculated out what you get reimbursed for doing without your particular part for the rest of your life. This is a small price to pay for keeping the wheels of industry , well, grinding away, I guess.
You give up a week of pay as a kind of deductible, then,…your protection sets in and you get a finacial reward for your “part”.
The top of a finger has been keenly assessed at $35.
I was promptly given a check.
Of course, those prices were established in 1969 and this was 1972 so the figures were still the ones to use for paying off fingers gone shorter. As I type this comment, the scar is still there at the tip, my fingerprint is askew, and the numbness that I have carried all these years is right there too.
No judge has ordered a reassessment of the easily observed, absurd assessment values from 1969. The world has lots more fingers today, and if you do not want to risk yours for $35, someone else will.
Now if it was possible to be smashed like that again, but instead of a fingertip alone, a gooood smashing from ALL your parts, and ALL OVER your body, and from EVERY direction, until you are bleeding from every possible sector of life and, tho moving fluidly and performing
(in shock), you are pretty smashed up and good for at least $75 in Workman’s Comp this time,………..
well, that is how I feel after reading a Jim post.
I don’t even know where to begin telling the doctor where to stitch to save my parts. I mean I feel like a post-Mafia hit, still walking down the aisle only to have someone scream “YOU NEED MORE THAN A BAND-AID”.
Renters. Landlords. Eeking out an existence.
Section 8
LERTA-gate
Heads above the water?
Lending, low wages, adjusted rates,
sleazy banking, owned by the state.
My PARTS Jim! My parts! You got me bleeding again and the realization is running to every cell that I am indeed losing blood and messing the floor and dying and probably be lucky to get $47 in the new assessment.
Only this time, instead of my body being clamped to death, we are clamping the City of Erie and all surrounding areas of the County to make sure that no part goes without a blood-letting here.
Is there any sunshine?
Well, my mom asked me to rent out her house. She had two and one was supposed to pay the mortgage while she lived in the other with our mini-city family. My mom is a mom; not a landlord sadly. Make that WAS, she died.
I told her I would rent the place, fix it and maintain it. I wanted a joint account set up and I would deposit each month after taking out an escrow amount for annual fix up and repairs or maintenance.
“Okay”, said mom. “But we are losing money on that house every month. How are you going to change that?” she queried.
“Mom, your rent is too low. You are attracting people who do not care about the property and they destroy it. We fix it and rent it only to do all that over again”
“What are you gonna do?”
“Double the rent”.
“No one will rent the place!”
“That would be better than renting it to someone who is hellbent on poking holes in the walls and destroying the toilet and ripping doors off”
I doubled the rent to a nice attractive couple
(this was in the days when folks squeamishly got married and did not yet shack up, so they made their pitch to me for using mom’s place as a starter for their family).
They paid their rent on time, immaculately kept the place clean, mowed the lawn, parked where they should, were not noisy, and produced darling looking children. Mom had money in her checking account; I had escrow for repairs as needed; the mortagage got paid.
Jim refers to Section 8 housing, but says nary a word on rental units to Gannon and Mercyhurst folks (even the shacking up among us). There is money being made in rentals in Erie, PA and it is twisted to think that the rules of low rent in one spot is applicable 100%.
I suppose that could be said about my rental experience as landlord for mom too. Maybe there are many nightmares for landlords and my experience was dumb luck.
But we have to do what I did with my mom.
We have got to get past this incessant calling upon every detail of what is bleeding in every sector of our City and start coming up with more of WHAT WORKS and WHY and do more of that.
I would need a post that prints from here to Massachusettes to undo the knots of misinformation Jim has tied, and presented, by aligning puzzle pieces from different puzzles, and muttering after, that the picture created does not look like the box cover.
The Hollowing Out of Erie……….
I bet if we tried, we could turn that around here. We could create…..
The Hallowing Out Of Erie,
on this sacred ground,
if we tried.
MGR
July 9th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I can’t believe Julio resisted cutting and pasting any of a number of his speeches on zoning here, this may be one of the best places for it in the history of this blog.
One commonality to a lot of vacant retail property is that it lacks critical mass around it. The reality is that unique like-kind clusters of retail perform better than sporatic plazas and mini-developments. Just look at how the Colony Plaza on 8th Street is packed to the gills with thriving niche operations but the West Erie Plaza across the street is fading. The stores in the Colony are almost all unique retail destinations that someone could arrive and spend a few hours shopping, hence the place does well. The West Erie Plaza is nothing but an eclectic mix of bargain/stock commodity shopping with a couple good stores and an aged movie theatre. Additionally, the shopping is poorly matched to the higher income demographics of the Frontier area.
Conversely, the Perry Plaza has performed very well by focusing on urban clothing and other products that the local population clearly supports. If someone wants to challenge that by pointing to Value City, that is just a case of an old-line retailer clearly falling off in its purchasing. I used to shop there, but the place had just hit the skids. and I could no longer get what I went there for – high quality buyout merchandise at a discount.
I would contest that for any vacant location someone wants to throw out there, the vacancy is pretty easy to explain and it has little to do with any population shift or economic decline in Erie. The Carpet place on Parade or the Ice Cream shop? Let’s get real, there are a lot more high volume carpet operations in the game these days and if I want ice cream on Parade Street I am going to Denny’s. Eastway Plaza – its a train wreck and Benderson never spent the money to update the place (K-mart’s plaza had the same problems but spent some money and perked it up). Quality Markets on 12th, not much of a store compared to Wegman’s right down the road or even Giant Eagle on 26th. Liberty Plaza had a strange blend of stores that vacated for various reasons, I believe Bush closed their outlet there for one and the Erie Sports store was seeking more critical shopping mass. I wouldn’t count that plaza out, though, as long as they are smart about what stores they accept to fill their vacancies. Here’s a prediction – I think the new plaza across from the mall will prove to be a dud. There is nothing over there to attract anyone consistently with the exception of Verizon Wireless. There is a stock McDonald’s, PNC, dental office. Then there’s O’Charley’s which is just another franchise spin restaurant and Moe’s which is a pretty greasy mexican fast food joint. Not a winning combo for that area.
Julio C. Reyes
July 9th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
MGR,
I have busy working but I just finished a conference call with one of my clients.
You said:
“Moe’s which is a pretty greasy mexican fast food joint.”
Now, that I have a little bit of time of course I can not resist the opportunity to educate you.
Moe’s is a Southwest Grill, they do not serve Mexican cuisine.
The only truly Mexican Restaurant and cuisine in Little Town and probably at least around 300 square miles or more is Latino’s. All the other places are either Tex-Mex, Southwest, or McMexican. I coined the McMexican term many years ago when to my dismay I discovered how bland and tasteless some people in the US are and they are truly convinced they know and they are eating Mexican cuisine when in reality they are buying and eating junk.
Talking about knowledge and information for crying out loud!
Julio C. Reyes
July 9th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
To all the readers,
Ian in his original post said:
“I don’t say this to upset anyone, but since it’s been seven months since the last time I’ve been here, it just looks rough. Erie has always been a rough, blue-collar town, I know. But, driving through some of the major intersections I’m blown away at the empty buildings and filth.”
Even though it is not necessary, I want to pick “filth” and “rough” from Ian’s post to justify why I used to call Little Town – “Ugly Little Town”.
In a positive note, I am happy that he noticed how much nicer Parade St. looks now. I always said quality and hard work always show.
For the record I want to mention that I still have a dream about Little Town: The whole Enchilada (region)
One day the esoteric assessment formulas currently used; the misinformation Danny is complaining about; the non-sense and propaganda that had allowed most of the Status Quo for generations will be no longer tolerated; the evils created by crony capitalism in the region will disappear; some day we will have true experts and big thinkers and good politicians with vision and courage to improve things around; and the Little Town will finally prosper.
I know, I know, I sound silly and stupid in my prior paragraph but.
I know the Raw material we need to make it happens is coming to Little Town. What is the Raw Material I am talking about? THE PEOPLE. The younger generations and the new immigrants that J. Berlin mentioned in his blogs the ever-changing face of Erie.
The Older generations that not want to see the future will either someday day die or they will just move on (out of the way!) because they will never be able to cooperate and compete with our future.
The secret is to be sure that once the dinosaurs die we do not allow our younger generations to operate and live in the same way.
The beauty of forums like this is that as long as we present the true facts supported with valid information it is very difficult for our pseudo leaders and big thinkers to continue fooling others. Knowledge sharing is the secret.
I guess the paradigm about fooling everybody all the time (at least once) and always fooling the same person (one) is getting a little more complicated these days.
And finally per MGR request I want to say:
Did somebody ever mentioned before good zoning is required? Otherwise either the best toilet built in the living room is not longer necessary (used) or the people will stop going to the living room because the toilet smells.
Danny Lucas
July 9th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Quality Markets on 12th, not much of a store compared to Wegman’s right down the road or even Giant Eagle on 26th.
—-MGR
You are one serious shopper MGR.
Quality shut down a series of stores that failed to make margins.
The store you compare to Wegman’s and Giant Eagle has been boarded up and closed half a year or more.
Ian Enterline commented on that sector and the Shell gas station on the corner of 12th and Powell, also boarded up with a last sale of gasoline priced at $2,69. — was that 1970?
More boarded up is the old Post Office with zip code 16505, on Powell at 12th, as it long ago, combined with Legion Road at 16506.
How many cities can boast a solo Post Office with two zip codes?
We do.
While the Colony Plaza is open, I would hardly call that a burst of consumer activity. A restaurant across from another closed gas station, a supermarket that even you fail to mention (Surefine) and a law practice to keep an attorney busy when he is not making flowers on upper Sterrettania at Riehl Gardens.
You can duke out a divorce or play havoc in court at Riehl & Riehl.
Now really, how many eclectic shoppers go there????
I grant you it is a niche.
This run down, hollowing is not just Erie.
Drive through Girard and look at car dealerships and stores missing for blocks on end. The town is absolutely gutted.
You also failed to cite the ever popular Dairy Queen that is in the West Erie Plaza. Our economy is booming thanks to them.
Need a driver’s license? Well, go out to Patrick’s Restaurant (good food), then head into the plaza. Drive by all the closed stores heading south. Turn east and drive by all the closed stores. When you get to the end of the strip, there is Penn Dot and your picture license spot.
Going out, head north by all the empty stores until you hit the road.
Go right and you get K-Mart, a thrill bigger than Ravine Flyer according to voters in the PA primary.
As for Verizon Wireless being a sole anchor in the nameless strip mall on the hill above Interchange Rd., they tell me personally that they have no broadband and no intention of getting it. Since they bill me $89 a month for a service I do not get, we are duking it out.
They contend that I am breaking my contract by not paying that part of my bill for which they provide no contracted service. (my laptop worked in Florida, California, Oregon, and Texas. No broadband in Erie. They tell me to drive by Meadville and it might pick up Pittsburgh from there. I declined).
I contend that THEY broke my contract by not providing what I paid for. I ask them to give me $200 for breaking the contract as we agreed.
They say “not paying is breaking”.
I say ” a deaf guy needs email and laptop at all times to communicate. I would never break contract and never missed a bill. I want braodband, pay for it, and do not get it. Gimme $200 and I advance to Go”
They billed me $5 late charge on a $7 not paid last month — broadband surcharges I did not pay. I sense a trip to Tom Corbet, the PA Attorney General coming up. He is the guy that tells eclectic spots like Verizon Wireless to provide what they advertise in this state.
Pitch another softball MGR.
MGR
July 9th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
No softballs or fastballs, just pointing out that it’s not a “hollowing out” of Erie at all, just regular business. Weaker operations die off, old buildings that aren’t maintained don’t keep tenants, there is a science to planning retail areas (and a benefit to critical mass clusters), and the newest strip mall addition by the Millcreek mall doesn’t have the right mix to succeed. Verizon Wireless, good, bad, or otherwise, has the best draw in that plaza due to their marketshare and the general market saturation of cellular phones. If you have one of their phones, love it or hate it, there are only 2 stores to discuss your problems with, so there is a pretty solid reason for people to go to that location.
Good luck in your battle with VZW, if you want an interesting piece of trivia, go ask one of their managers to explain why we don’t have broadband – it is because there are TOO many subscribers for the number of towers here and the FCC won’t allow it until more are built.
In another interesting bit that I leave to anyone who wants to fact check, I thought I heard that Nick Scott bought Eastway. I am sure if that is true, it is slated to be torn down as it has been a mess for many years which caused the exodus of occupants in the first place.
Danny Lucas
July 9th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
I did talk to Verizon Wireless on the Broadband intention for Erie, MGR.
I asked if there was a resistance to towers being built (common, since folks think they are unsightly).
Nope, towers are not a problem. They have towers.
In terms of too many subscribers, it has yet to even make a dent compared to the future. Wireless is built in laptops now. You do not need an attached modem. EVERYONE will go wireless in the future.
That was a concern to me that the future is Broadband and wireless, but Verizon has no intention to implement the Broadband locally.
They gave me no suggestion or hint that FCC was a problem.
This came across as clearly a company decision due to market.
Erie is not worth the hassle to their future growth.
My laptop worked supremely all over the country (it is about a year old VAIO and I had a techie look at it to be sure the problem was not the laptop). Everyone involved agrees that my laptop does not receive Broadband because there is no broadband being broadcast at Verizon Wireless.
There is a science to planning retail areas as you stated. I agree.
But our zoning laws in all quarters of the country trump that science. There is no logical or consistent zoning anywhere in the county, with the possible exception of Lowville and swamplands. They are zoned swamp and will probably stay that way, eh?
Zoning allows our lakefront to hodgepodge industrial, commercial, retail, residential all along the lakefront (I remember playing bocce at Ted Junker’s nice spot on the lake and thought it unusual that homes bordered a Great Lake anymore). But the zoning overlaps as you go from one end of Erie County on the lake to the other end of the county.
NONE of it makes sense and each time a place is cleared to allow metamorphasis and growth, it slams up against the inconsistency of zoning next door.
GAF? Sheraton? Library? Sunburst? Sewage? Fishermen at Avonia on Rt 98 and Flowers Home across the creek.???
Waldameer and some condos instead of the Presque Isle Inn for everyone to light their butts like a lightning bug asking for a date.
Take it from there that the Lakefront from Ohio to New York is a portal to hell as zoned now. Hell has no science, MGR.
Eastway was a hope for our tourism increase. The Bowler’s State Championship has been held there in the past and drew a pile of folks from every sector of PA.
Given the sheer number of firms that have shut their door as manufacturers on the eastside, I suspect that there is very little disposable income to allow weekly leagues, a lifeline to the success of any bowling spot. (They lose to summer as other activities take place; bowling slows down til leagues kick in).
There was an attempt to revive it in the newer generations with night time Glow Ball with flourescent balls and pins giving a little zip to younger generations thrashing a 7 -10 split. I don’t know if that ever caught on with Generation Why?
If you are a bowler over there, provide a description of the place and your experience at this site:
http://www.mytravelguide.com/attractions/profile-71382305-United_States_Pennsylvania_Erie_Eastway_Lanes.html
We need to be burning on all cylinders around here so do your part and make that spare!
George Vietze
July 10th, 2008 at 7:11 am
Whether it be an individual, company, municipality, association failing to have a PLAN is plaining to fail. The fractured municipalities, county, associations, authorities, townships need to work toward a more regional approach to solve some of the problems challenging the quality growth of this area. The only solid approach towards this goal , that I have observed, is the format that Envision Erie has put forth, it has stated purpose, goals and objectives and is in the process of forming a steering committee to help move their goals forward. Certainly discussions such as the comments on this forum enlighten this subject and add to the thought process. The next step is implementing thtat purpose, goal and objectives with the support of residents, concerned individuals and political and business leaders who lay out a comprehensive plan that can be identified and included in the marketing efforts of upgrading the quality of life for the entire area. That purpose, goal and plan initially sounds difficult but unless we eat this elephant one bit at a time and put together an organized effort of concerned people with the purpose and talent to move forward we will be left with an unplanned effort of shattered interests and built in conflicts of special interest with the same results as we look back.
At least, watch their progress and comment on their progress or lack thereof or come up with a format that will accomplish the goals you say you want to see happen. Thoughts are great, comments launch those thoughts into the universe but focus and intention will manifest reality.
Erie has the concerned residents in this community with the talent and knowledge to move this place forward, the roots of this community are deeper than most communities. As someone fairly new here I was deeply impressed with the broad array of concerned talent at the meeting on June 26 and the professional approach to a difficult goal of trying to regionalize thinking and transform a community to create a more vibrant future. I was greatly encouraged, I obviously am optimistic about the Erie area but unless I see a planned organized effort made up of real bodies with real purpose working on the implementation of those goals it is difficult to vision the results if their is no PLAN to envision. “Things need to be different if this area is going to suceed!” is not enough. Forming a different path and walking that path rather than talking that path may lead to a different and vibrant future.
Join the group and be part of the future.
Call or write Alan R. Kugler or Renee Lamis, PA Futures
814-881-4155 or email alankugler@pafutures.org
or reneelamis@pafutures.org