Outside Erie

93 Responses to “Manufacturing’s Biggest Enemy”

1. john morris
   March 26th, 2008 at 12:04 am

   Now, here’s a subject!! What are we going to do about this huge unstable dictatorship which we are now in debt to???

   By the way do you guys have one of those cool shows of plasticized corpses that are China’s latest export product? Best not to wonder about how these people died so late at night.

2. Dan
   March 26th, 2008 at 7:17 am

   That’s the problem FREE TRADE.
   What we need is FAIR TRADE.
   The cost of labor trunps all and China controls its cost.
   It also has no enviromental watch dog to raise its cost. Has no health care cost or pensions to worry about. Their only cost seems to be the bribes they have to pay to their officials. Some overseer just looks the other way for a price. What does he care about the “evil USA” if there is lead in the paint of children’s toys? He thinks it is just punishment for the capitalists.

3. James A
   March 26th, 2008 at 8:43 am

   China is a big part of the problem, but it’s not the whole picture. In 2007, the trade deficit with China was $256 billion. The total US trade deficit was $708 billion. Even if we broke even with China, that still leaves a $452 billion deficit - $452 billion in capital that’s flowing out of the US and into other countries besides China. This site has a breakdown of the deficit by product type.

   “$293 billion for petroleum related products
   $328 billion for consumer products
   $193 billion for all other goods
   $107 billion in surplus for services”

   As far as I’m aware we don’t import oil from China, so oil imports make up a larger portion of the trade deficit than Chinese imports.

   The AAM is correct in saying that unfair Chinese trade practices do hurt the US economy. But this isn’t all China’s fault.

4. James A
   March 26th, 2008 at 8:57 am

   Sorry, here is the link.

5. Danny Lucas
   March 26th, 2008 at 8:58 am

   Who among us would walk up to the boss and yell
   “I want more money than you are giving me”?
   No one, or it would be adios.

   Hence, the Chinese work for less.

   Ironically, we as a nation have allowed debt to become a way of life with absolutely NO stigma as in pre-1969 era (Visa debuts that year).
   The vast majority of our govenment bonds are not held by us. The oil shieks and Chinese own us financially.
   We are debtor slaves.

   Now that the Chinese own us financially, “Who among us would walk up to the boss and yell
   “I want more money than you are giving me”? (fair trade)

   The ramifications are such that when our spy plane is shot down by Chinese pilots, we politely wait until they are done stripping the technology clean, and return the leftovers. We say “pretty please” and hope.

   When we were NOT a debtor nation, that same activity would be an act of war. We have no one to blame for the loss of our country….but ourselves.

   The Soviet Union was ended due to financial collapse.

   The sucking sound you here today is the USA following the way of the Soviet Union due to negligence of our economy, our savings and finances, our stock manipulations, our lack of regulation, our allowance of monopolies (less competition is not the way we grow), and our personal debt financing even a burger….and glamorizing it in an ad on tv.

6. Radio Free JoJo
   March 26th, 2008 at 9:42 am

   Back when the economy was strong, the trade deficit was blamed on the strong dollar. Local manufacturers were crying foul because of China’s currency practices. Now the dollar is weak, commodities all cost more, cost of doing business is higher, and we continue to be in the tank.

   What’s the winning formula?

7. Danny Lucas
   March 26th, 2008 at 10:17 am

   Not quite Radio.

   When the dollar was strong, we moaned about the artificial low value of the Japanese Yen. They were wiping out our steel mills and auto industry with a MONETARY policy, not a trade practice. We cried foul accordingly.
   This was circa 1980’s.

   When Reagan fired the air traffic controllers, business learned that de-unionization was fair game and the government would look the other way.
   There was union abuse to be sure; however, the economic profile and wages of all Americans lockstepped with union wages to an amazing degree.

   China could not participate with its huge labor advantage until they quit making crap. Remember the combs you bought that had the teeth sticking together? Poor quality.
   To a degree, they still make junk.

   But, they have improved theft, and are second to no one at that, save perhaps, the Mossad on intelligence gathering.

   Our plastics industry was safe while we produced a quality product, even for Japanese autos. Then, the injection molds technology went away to China….how is debatable.
   Meadville tool and die folks found that the $50,000 injection mold could be had locally for $30,000 (now with similar quality…and our refusal to go metric has made us even more costly globally). Bye Meadville.

   Once China secured the production technique of mold making, their labor advantage could crank out plastic at an astonishing volume. Wal Mart helped the entire scherme of things by streamlining points of distribution.

   China also sucks up crude oil to produce the plastic pellet, and PVC. We are playing around with recycled material that now allows US to produce crap.

   Virgin PVC is best. You can thumb a comb and the teeth never break….the unbreakable comb! Use recycled material and the weaknesses set in from reuse.
   China learned.
   We recycle; this is true of paper, too, as it degenerates with recycle from high quality Hammermill to newsprint to garbage bags and cardboard packaging for Chinese goods.

   Now, China has the labor advantage, the stolen technology (much of that allowed by Clinton folks in the 1990’s and a case could likely be made that contributions, politically, were involved)….and last, their money is NOW devalued as Japan taught them to do. They have a full house.
   We have a sole deuce. I think it is in Summit Township.

   The entire world bemoans the practice. But much of the world is now dependent on China for everything and looks the other way while moaning.

   Our steel border with Mexico is brought to you by the folks who have the largest steel making capacity….China.
   And, we borrowed the money from them to finance their workers getting the job.

   Your rebate check is gonna do the same thing. Huckabee said it months ago when he pointed out that giving rebates is strange. He could not fathom how borrowing from China, to give money to Americans, to buy Chinese goods, for Chinese to manufacture, helps Americans. He is right.

   Enjoy the rebate. It will get us past the election and we won’t collapse for another year.

8. Mike
   March 26th, 2008 at 11:16 am

   It’s challenging to walk into a department store and find anything that’s made in the US. The cost of labor is so much cheaper in China that we can’t compete. In many cases, Chinese workers have to work in brutal conditions while Americans lose good paying jobs. The workers in both countries lose, while corporations can produce a product for a small cost, thus more profit.

9. Dale
   March 26th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

   Until the government of the United States puts the clamps on foreign countries dumping their shoddy, subsidized, goods on our shores, the situation will not get better. A few years ago in the 80’s and 90’s, some of the major corporations began to quietly demand that a certain percentage of tooling for their finished products must be outsourced to offshore (read Chinese) manufacturers. Many former tool shops have gone out of business because of it. Rubbermaid, Hoover, and other big-names started the practice. It is not a matter of protectionism to limit Chinese imports until they begin a fair-trade policy. It is critical that something be done to even the playing field. This country with it’s “Free-Trade” attitude is the major cause of our own downturn. As Americans lose more jobs to foreign markets due to our corporations looking only for more profits, regardless of the damage to our own economy, the less money we have to spend. It will not be a long time before the whole situation implodes in our laps.

10. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    News flash this day:

    Motorola to Split Itself in Two

    Motorola said Wednesday that it would split itself into two publicly traded companies as it struggles to boost its stock price and faces pressure from activist investor Carl C. Icahn.

    The ONLY reason Hammermill Paper Company ceased to exist in Erie, PA is the same as this story.
    Short term stock performance to enhance the portfolio of the few is done at the expense of the country, our workers, and our communities. When one company goes under, it drags down spin off companies (suppliers, vendors, nearby restaurants, and the like).

    Hammermill was always profitable.
    Some stock traders/owners thought that management was ‘underperforming”, meaning that the profit level was not high enough to suit them….despite it being a profit. The lament?
    MORE! NOW!

    Hammermill sought a “white knight” to save them from the charging, laid out by Mr. Icahn, to takeover.
    The “white knight” that stepped in, International Paper, was only too eager to shut down a competitor and own the name and brand. Now, it is produced elsewhere. Hammermill Papers, but not in Erie, PA.
    I bought some at Office Max this week.

    Lots of money was made in these transactions. The source was the pockets of a couple of thousand Erie workers, who never saw it coming. All of this is nice and legal to do.

    Motorola stock is down 45%. Like a wounded gazelle, it is as vulnerable as prey, as any firm that fails to increase quarterly. We shoot our good manufacturers to death instead of looking at long term performance. This will not end until government regulation makes the practice illegal to exploit.

    Enron, with its mark-to-market accounting practice (in collusion with Arthur Anderson — who clearly knew better) did the same practice but from INSIDE instead of an attack from the OUTSIDE. Profits were booked and marked long before a thing had been done except set up a sale.
    Short term must ALWAYS look great.

    Maybe that is why the local hospitals showed less than stellar enthusiasm for Mr. Kansius home made bonanza.
    Profits with Kansius are long term. Not acceptable under current management philosophy in this nation.

    We did this to AT&T a few decades back and almost did it to Microsoft when the government went after Bill Gates. The phone company was split up in order to make “competition viable” among the Baby Bells. This was even before cell phones and Internet made the entire industry go through transformation central.

    Certain commodities are inelastic and should be left alone to the monopolies. Utilities like water and good ole Gate’s Microsoft come to mind.

    Elastic commodities,…the stuff you do not need to survive but enjoy buying, like Bic pens and Maytags, and frying pans,… need a tad more protection than is currently given.

    Some fall in between elastic and inelastic.
    Your cell phone or cable tv are vital these days. If rates went to $300 a month, many would subscribe still.
    If rates went to $7,000 a month, I suspect a pull back would occur by most. Old rules of monetary policy on elastic and inelastic activity, and their predictability are difficult to pull off anymore.

    Between national monetary policy favoring other nations, and predatory practices that get a “wink” of ok from the system, instead of regulation as in days of yore, manufacturing here in the USA will spiral down the funnel incrementally….and then exponentially.

    Note that there is zero talk in this presidential election year on any of this. We deal with “preacher comments” and “Bosnia-visit danger proclamations” and “patriotism”, while the ship of state takes on water in the upper decks.

    Worse, the advisers to all viable candidates, with respect to monetary policy, are basically all the same in advice to their candidate. None have fresh thinking ala Roosevelt (Teddy)….”walk softly and carry a big stick”.

    Fiscal policy is never discussed! We borrow from the Social Security trust funds, for the tax is set, and no one minds paying for Social Security BUT would scream if taxed to pay for what we “borrow” from the trust.
    Oh what a tangled web we have created, eh?

    When people ask me who to vote for, I tell them to write in their name. Most of those asking me have more common sense than I have seen available for the booth.

11. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    The concept of free trade implies freedom and real trade and competion is among people and not nations. So, talking about free trade with a shadowy dictatorship like China is a contradiction in terms.

    I actively supported full free trade with the free society in Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan which are either very free or clearly on the path to freedom but the case of China is entirely different.

    Free trade with a twisted gulag state is not free trade at all!! Of course one can argue that China has improved tremendously since the murerous mr Mao– but freedom cannot be graded on a curve.

    Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of China today is it’s seemingly rabid desire to support all of the world’s other crazy states. Mostly it’s about grabbing resources in places like Africa but I think it’s also to stop the general global trend towards freedom and democracy.

12. Julio C. Reyes
    March 26th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    Lip’s service, information, education and propaganda

    For the most part the American consumer loves to talk about quality, fairness and good products but at the end most of them only want the cheapest price products.

    In regards to free trade it had never existed. Who ever has the edge will take advantage of the situation. Just look in detail at the history books and you will know what I am talking about. Please ignore the propaganda that just promotes hate, fear and ignorance.

    These days around the world but especially in the USA people have no clue about the real value of things. How much it takes to build a product from R&D to final production and distribution.

    The USA is losing grounds because:

    1. Its monetary policies, dollar is paper money not supported by gold reserves anymore.
    2. There are only two or three countries in the world using the English system rather than the metric system. The USA is one of them.
    3. No mass public transportation systems indirectly affecting labor cost and cost of living within major urban areas.
    4. Price of Utilities – Gas, Electrical, Gasoline, etc.
    5. Unnecessary Taxes and Regulations that affect labor cost. While I believe in paying fair taxes for education and government services. At the world level I resent to pay taxes for unnecessary Wars and to have USA military installations in over 130 countries around the world. At the local level I resent to pay taxes to pay every year to patch the pot holes and to pay for snow removal using at least 80 or 100 years old methods just to keep the bureaucrats employed.
    6. Lack of capital investment for new products/technology. We need new technologies to create new products rather than creating investments scams in the financial markets to cover the fake paper money and market manipulation.

    Just a couple of facts to support my arguments.

    Mexico is the second largest Trade partner with the USA after Canada. So, if all the Mexicans start buying directly from China we will be in a worst situation. So all the rhetoric about the NAFTA- Mexico is just hot air. I worked implementing software for Maquiladoras (American Companies) in the border with Mexico in the 80’s. Now most of those companies are Chinese, Indian, and Japanese.

    Paper money example is the stupid tax rebates encouraging the consumers to buy. Fake money, lousy products and then everybody is happy.

    I grew up in Mexico and I saw there what unfortunately I am seeing in the USA now.

    A big Mexican company and/or private Mexican investor made money selling real hard good quality products in Mexico then they sent all the money to the USA banks because they were told it was safer for them to keep the money in the US banks rather than in the Mexican banks. Then the Mexican government asked the US banks for loans to invest in public projects/services like roads, dams and public transportation. Of course the US banks were charging interest to the Mexicans lending them Mexican money. Is it that crazy or what? So, now the USA with the paper money is doing exactly the same. Who really has the money these days and where is it coming from? Where is the Gold?

    Unions are an animal in its own so I am not going to go there right now.

    The only answer from my point of view is true education and a grass root movement that encourage local products consumption as much as possible. More importantly is for the people to know the real value of things. The government will never do it and even if they do and try to restrict “FREE TRADE” the other countries will retaliate and reciprocate.

    Every one of us should consume local but that will never happen. Going back to manufacturing does anybody really believes that if I open a distribution center of only US manufactured products I will be able to stay in business depending on the American consumer paying extra? What if I start manufacturing a new consumer product in Erie will the “locals” will buy it and how much time it will take me to recover my investment if ever?

    Talking does not cost anything.

13. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    “China cheats and Pennsylvania loses,” said Paul, noting that the U.S. racked up record annual trade deficits in 2007 with both China ($256 billion) and its NAFTA partners ($138 billion). “If the presidential candidates want to save Pennsylvania jobs, they should commit to fighting China’s illegal trade practices such as dumping, subsidies, and currency manipulation.”
    —- http://www.manufacturethis.org

    Let’s try to get a grip on this monster.
    First step is understanding the magnitude and implications.

    See if this helps.
    You have 100 baby chicks in a room.
    The room is called Gross Domestic Product.
    12 chicks are blue and all the rest of the 88 are yellow.

    Those 12 blue chicks represent ALL of the USA manufacturing output as a part of our GDP.
    Since 88 yellow chicks contribute the balance of our GDP, maybe you can see why manufacturing is bottom-of-the-totem-pole of interest to our candidates.

    Now, some chicks grow up to be eaten at Kentucky Fried Chicken while others are maintained as breeders.
    Skip the 88 yellow ones and look at the 12 blue chicks now.

    Those 12 account for:
    66% of total exports
    75% of research and development (our future) (all patents)
    100% of our national security.

    You can win an election with votes from 88 yellow birds who are destined to be consumed.

    You can lose a country by ignoring the 12 blue birds.

    Reminds me of a song:

    “Yellow bird, up high in banana tree.
    Yellow bird, you sit all alone like me.

    Did you lady friend leave the nest again?
    That is very sad, makes me feel so bad.
    You can fly away, in the sky away.
    Your more lucky than me.

    I also had a pretty girl, she’s not with me today.
    They’re all the same those pretty girls.
    Take tenderness, then they fly away.
    Yellow Bird, yellow bird.

    Did you lady friend leave the nest again?
    That is very sad, makes me feel so bad.
    You can fly away, in the sky away.
    Your more lucky than me.

    Wish that I were a yellow bird, I’d fly away with you.
    But I am not a yellow bird, So here I sit.
    Nothing I can do.
    Yellow bird, yellow bird.”

    I guess it is tough to be a blue bird these days.
    Nothing I can do.
    (OR is there?)

    Figures for analogy are from Alliance for American Manufacturing

    Here is how they said the same thing:
    “Manufacturing in the U.S. generates about $1.6 trillion, or 12 percent of our gross domestic product, accounting for nearly three quarters of the nation’s industrial research and development (R&D), two-thirds of our nation’s total exports of goods and services, and supports more than 20 million high-paying jobs. Manufacturing also ensures we have a strong industrial base to support our national security objectives.”

14. Jim
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    Amen Julio.

    Interesting you mentioned energy costs. Just today I read a note of protesters from several Pennsylvania counties objecting to a new power line being built. In the USA, not only do we not want to produce energy, we even protest its distribution.

    I could just imagine the protest the east side of Erie would generate if Penelec proposed building a new grid supporting power line through Erie.

    If industry cannot get reasonably priced energy, they will go were they can regardless of labor rates, which are more a function of productivity. Our industrial decline can be directly correlated to the increase in energy costs, and the decline in energy production. Primarily in oil and natural gas, but it effects electricity too, since we have diverted so much of our domestic natural gas production into electric generation, without enlarging the gas distribution system, thereby increasing the cost of both. Add in taxes, regulation, and insurance costs and its no wonder industry decides to relocate in cheaper places. The mistake is blaming the labor rate. The decision is made longer before you get to the labor rates.

    What is so unfortunate is that the public stands by demanding more government intervention that only increases those costs. You would think that sooner or later they would get the message.

15. Joe Erie
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    John Morris Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of China today is it’s seemingly rabid desire to support all of the world’s other crazy states. Mostly it’s about grabbing resources in places like Africa but I think it’s also to stop the general global trend towards freedom and democracy.

    You mean like what the United States (or maybe US corporations backed by federal muscle) has done since the 1950s in Indonesia, South America, and the Middle East?

    Let’s see, we supported the “crazy” dictator Suharto with the military power to quash uprisings in Sulawesi and Borneo where we wanted stability for our power plants and access to mineral deposits. The number of dictators we’ve installed and supported to protect our economic interests in South and Central America is too long long to list (though Pinochet and Noriega immediately come to mind). In the Middle East… where to begin… hmmm, how about with Saddam Hussein?

    Sorry John, but you totally set that one up by offering one of the shallowest, “I’ve got blinders on”, comments I’ve seen in a while.

16. Joe Erie
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    Like it or not, the USA-China partnership will define global economics in the 21st century.

    China is our friend.

17. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    Many, many good points being made here which libertarians can agree on.

    The one about the obsession with short term stock performance is one of the best.Nothing should p-off an advocate of a free market than watching executives walk off with options and bonuses right before their companies tank.

    One solution is for shareholders to advocate that the majority of bonus and option cash be laid in some kind of escrow account which can only be gotten at — after it’s clear that the long term effects of their decisions were good for the company and shareholders.

    By the way, Enron’s accounting tricks are not close to what the government does. We only use cash accounting!!!!

18. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    I meant, they only use cash accounting.

19. Julio C. Reyes
    March 26th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    John,

    Please correct me if I am wrong but printing dollars bills (cash) without the gold to back it up it might be worse than cooking the books.

    I guess I will take Enron and Arthur Anderson accounting practices anyday. At least the dollar bills will not make it out of the USA that quickly.

    Just to be safe I must disclosed that I worked for the Consulting Division of Arthur Anderson for five years before I came to the USA in 1983.

20. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    Joe say’s

    China is our friend.

    Well Joe, we really need better friends. Everything you said about America’s support for dictators from Suharto, to Mobutu and Saddam Hussein, The Sha of Iran and the oil sheikdoms is so true. The question is where have these policies gotten us??

    We also know that many of these relationships of convenience had to do with the cold war and fear of even worse threats out there like Joseph Stalin or Mao But today they are beyond any forgiveness.

    India, the world’s largest democracy has a huge market too and at least shows real signs of interest in the rule of law. Taiwan has made huge strides and can today be called a free society. It’s biggest problem in further progress being terror froom China.

21. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    Here is Julio’s conclusion:
    “The only answer from my point of view is true education and a grass root movement that encourage local products consumption as much as possible. ”

    All of that after espousing precisely why we do not buy local products. But still, Julio misses the mark.

    China cheats. Simple as that.
    They are subsidizing energy costs to steel makers
    (up 3800 % on Peter’s link above)
    Another page takes on China cheating, industry by industry from tree logs to shrimps to energy.
    The whole world is screaming at the Chinese. But first, let’s go to the Olympics, eh?

    Your business would do just fine in the USA Julio, …if the government subsidized 3,800 % of your energy costs among other freebies before you go on market.

    Let’s look closer.

    Per Julio,
    The USA is losing grounds because:

    1. Its monetary policies, dollar is paper money not supported by gold reserves anymore.

    Our money is worthless in the international theater.
    Gold reserves went out with Nixon. You say they are
    relevant. OK, what other country backs their money
    with gold? Certainly not China! Slim pickins to find
    others that do too.
    We have previously had other assets to back up the
    dollar. Foreigners own those assets today. We have
    squandered our existence.
    Gold reserves doesn’t cut it, in reality, as you claim.
    Otherwise, gold reserve countries would beat our butt.
    Other countries beat our butt; but not with gold
    reserves.

    2. There are only two or three countries in the world using the English system rather than the metric system. The USA is one of them.

    We blew this big time. Our manufacturing costs
    escalate dramatically primarily in tooling. The
    English to Metric conversion is not exact and to
    do global business, you must have metrics. We stock
    tooling in BOTH and double our tooling costs as a
    result. This can only be corrected with new children
    being taught metrics asap. I agree on this one Julio.

    3. No mass public transportation systems indirectly affecting labor cost and cost of living within major urban areas.

    This is not a factor in the USA losing ground. It is
    stupid public policy, but hardly a reason for losing
    ground. Indeed, the need for autos in lieu of public
    transport is a large driver in our GDP. We like cars.
    There is NO relationship to labor costs whatsoever.
    There is a relationship to energy consumption. However,
    this is a function of our country size and shape.
    All of France can pretty much squeeze into New York
    State alone. We are a big country.

    GE Locomotive should be working with Congress to do a
    massive infrastructure change akin to Eisenhower doing
    the Interstate Highway System in the 1950’s and
    connecting our cities with roads. GE needs to
    construct new rails WITHIN the median of those
    highways big time! Flat rail cars should transport
    every 18 wheeeler and tractors be at both ends for
    local distribution. All 18 wheelers off the roads
    frees up wear and tear and need for new construction
    (more space for cars now). Fuel consumption savings
    would be enormous too.
    With a great system like this, I could envision autos
    also hitching onboard for cross country travel. Add a
    rail sleeping car for the folks as they and their auto
    zoom at close to 200 mph thanks to eriez Maghnetics
    levitation additions. This could work.

    4. Price of Utilities – Gas, Electrical, Gasoline, etc.

    Bunk! We are not losing ground because of the price.
    We are losing ground because of the subsidized nature
    elsewhere. Our government is NOT giving a free ride on
    this as other countries do for their companies.
    Most countries buy their needs in the marketplace.
    China is buying the wellhead source in Iran and
    elsewhere. The rules are changing on energy. The
    ownership will be Chinese!

    5. Unnecessary Taxes and Regulations that affect labor cost. While I believe in paying fair taxes for education and government services. At the world level I resent to pay taxes for unnecessary Wars and to have USA military installations in over 130 countries around the world. At the local level I resent to pay taxes to pay every year to patch the pot holes and to pay for snow removal using at least 80 or 100 years old methods just to keep the bureaucrats employed.

    Everybody has ideas on what is appropriate for
    government expenditure and what is inappropriate.
    The purse is controlled by Congress. Closing the purse
    is always the perogative of the purse owner.
    Opening the purse is too. By the way, snow removal in
    China is done with a method thousands of years old,
    not 80 to 100 years outmoded. Take 1 million Chinese &
    add a shovel to each. Get real. We do not have the
    population for that.
    Your opening line said this:
    Lip’s service, information, education and propaganda.
    Your number 5 qualifies. You give no indication who
    should pay more, less, how much, why, etc.
    Translation? The rant is meaningless.

    VAT has made Europe stronger (but we subsidize their
    national defense big time).

    Flat tax is unfair to the lower incomes as
    proportionally, they would be underwriting the govern-
    ment.

    The fastest fix? Get rid of deductions and loopholes
    across the board and market forces would determine
    expenditures and investment, not tax and fiscal policy
    directing the market as we now do.

    6. Lack of capital investment for new products/technology. We need new technologies to create new products rather than creating investments scams in the financial markets to cover the fake paper money and market manipulation.

    Hard to argue with truth.
    The bird analogy above covered this.
    Capital investment in the USA is a function of
    confidence in return (zilch exists) and a function
    of our global competition. Right now, we hold a bad
    hand compared to them.
    Your proposal to withdraw militarily around the globe
    and shrink our Military Industrial Complex is not
    realistic. Requiring payment for mercenary protection
    as we are want to do, is a reasonable alternative to
    control the cost.

    Last on your list Julio was this gem:
    “Talking does not cost anything.”

    I see you do not talk to attornies very often. Visit one and come back here and tell me the same line.
    Litigation is a key factor in wiping the USA from the global map. The only way to address this issue is to hire an attorney. If you do that, guess what you get.
    This would be a great product to export….attornies to clog the global arteries. But, other countries seem to do well without them thank you very much.

    I wonder how many trees we could save by wiping Attorney as a section from the phone book?

    On the other hand, when someone is stealing your business and you need protection, these silver tongued talkers come in handy. As I said to my own attorney one time after he won, “Blessed Are The Peacemakers”.

    Be careful what you ask for.

22. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    A coupla days ago, I saw attacks on Morris as a writer and thought I would comment on that. Things came up and I shelved it in a draft. But the same stuff occurs over and over, so I dug it out for an insert right here.

    I am not changing a word so be advised it reflects a prior post topic, but seems to be needed said here too.
    (((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    “Foul Archie, Foul!”, cried Edith.
    “That’s not Fair fighting”

    “Edith, you are a dingbat”, replied Archie.

    I recall the episode on All In The Family, as I read Dale above. I debated this a few days ago too.

    My memory was dangling a ditty about being silent when the authorities came for the workers. And staying silent when the authorities came for the Jewish. And being silent when they came for whoever they came for. Then, when they came for me, there was no one to speak up for me.

    Well, when JoeErie told John Morris that his thoughts penned were “nauseous”, I did not speak up.

    And when Dale says HIS piece above, I find the word “verbiage” condescending at at modicum.
    And, telling Morris to be “comprehendable” is a reflection on the reader as well as the writer.

    When you go to the comics page in the paper, you think nothing of reading your favorites and skipping the rest.
    Why is that so hard to do on a blog?

    If you see a post by Morris, or me, or anyone you do not like to read, skip it like a comic you do not read.

    But don’t chide the author personally as nauseous, or verbiage-able, or insist that he write in a way you can comprehend (he may lose other readers in the course of trying to satisfy your needs). I say let John write whatever he wants and how he wants. No one has to read it. His name is at the top of each post….unlike many others who comment.

    As for my own observation on “outside the box”, I have to make a confession there. I had dinner with a Communications Consultant in the Big City and that phrase came up by me. HE replied: “There is no damn box”. I thought that over for 2 days and had to agree
    (tho I have yet to email that response to him).
    It came up now, as Morris wrote it, and the serendipity of me going through the above on Easter weekend brought it up.

    So John Morris, if you wanna get a thrill on “outside the box”, okee-dokee. But, be advised of the thoughts of major players in Communications finding that unfashionable.

    Peter is correct here. Comments need to be on thoughts and issues and not on comment makers. Someday, they could come after YOU! Consider yourself defended here.
    ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    Sometimes the attacks get so peronal, I swear someone is married to another one’s ex-wife. We can do better by sticking with the issues instead of the players on the field.

    “That’s a nice letter of apology Edith”

    “I didn’t write that Archie! You did! When the gambling sickness started, you wrote that apology to me”

    “This is a lousy trick Edith”

    “But Archie,…it is still an apology. Now, all you gotta do is sign here at the bottom again. That’s a new apology letter.
    And, while you are doing that, I will tell you how sorry I am for smacking the smile off your face”

    “You’re a ding bat Edith! Gimmee the pen”.

23. Steven Capozzola
    March 26th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    There are a lot of good comments posted here. The one I might have the most to say about is Joe Erie’s statement of “China is our friend.”

    But rather than add a repy to that, let me ask this: Why aren’t the presidential candidiates talking about China? Why aren’t they stating what they’ll do to address China’s dumping, subsidies, and illegal currency manipulation?

    It’s good that some of them have talked about NAFTA’s failures. But it’s not enough. Our trade deficit with China was $256 billion in 2007– more than $100 billion greater than the 2007 trade deficit with our NAFTA partners. Why aren’t the candidates focusing on that?

24. Jim
    March 26th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    I think the reason is because the left is so anti production, and all three left in the running know it, that none are willing to go to after the deficit as it would be immediately viewed by the left blogs as a corporate welfare proposal.

    In this country trade deficits are viewed more positively than corporate profits. Tells you something about how concerned we really are about family sustaining wage jobs.

25. Joe Erie
    March 26th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    John,

    While I realize that some of China’s involvement in resource development in Africa deals with nations that do not have good human rights records to say the least, but what are they doing in their oil procurement that the US hasn’t done for decades in the Middle East?

    At least the Chinese do not have their military starting wars in Africa (like we have in the Mid East) and have never established enormous military bases (like we are doing on the African continent). Instead, they are priming themselves for greater economic gain by developing sustainable markets for their cheaply-produced goods in the nations of Africa. The Chinese are investing in massive infrastruture projects (hydroelectric dams, roads, bridges, etc.) in African nations to support the Chinese corporations that are establishing business there and to provide the African citizens with a higher standard of living, and thus the means to enter the market for Chinese goods and for China to gain open access to resources. We lose out here, big time; as we have long avoided large-scale investment in Africa and ignored the terrible issues its many nations have faced.

    Also, we should be mad at China for moving towards becoming our largest trade partner? For allowing us to rack up the largest trade deficit in the world with them? For putting back all that debt into US bonds to keep interest rates low for us?

    If China’s not our friend, then we better make sure that they are real soon. Because within a generation, we are no longer going to be the only economic superpower in the world. Heck, Wal-Mart realized this a long time ago.

26. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    Joe,

    First of all- China is a black box state and who they support in Africa is also pretty black box. We do know that they seem to have made big investments in the Sudan wich is knee deep in all kinds of stuff. Also Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe regime seems to think he is their savior. Have they given him money and how much is not known.

    In China’s defense, I admit the fact that they just feel like it’s their turn now and it’s none of our business if they want to build a colonial empire now and who are we to talk about torture anyway.

    The other huge assumption being made here is that the current regime in China is popular among it’s own people. If it should turn out that it wasn’t and should it fall, there may be some anger at us.

27. Joe Erie
    March 26th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    ^ First of all, how is China “black box”?. It is pretty much common knowledge on the world stage what they are doing in Africa. They are developing it, not with military bases, but with the necessary infrastructure to support global trade, gain access to resources, and create a market for their goods on an untapped continent.

    China’s rather recent foray into capitalism has lifted literally millions of its citizens out of extreme poverty. Have you ever been to China? Do you realize the boom happening in Shanghai, Beijing, etc. They are building the world’s tallest buildings at record pace, constructing manufacturing complexes that make peak US steel industry facilities look like mom and pop machine shops, and are building sprawling McMansion suburbs straight out of the USA’s playbook.

28. Dale
    March 26th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    Danny
    “And when Dale says HIS piece above, I find the word “verbiage” condescending at at modicum.
    And, telling Morris to be “comprehendable” is a reflection on the reader as well as the writer.”
    Please read my note to John Morris–#21 under Bloomberg–I believe it explains my previous post to his satisfaction, perhaps to yours, too. Sometimes more precise writing can be more effective. Just a friendly suggestion, not intended to be an insult to John.

29. P. Erie
    March 26th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    The same people that constantly complain about how bad China is for America are the same people shopping at Wal-Mart and enjoying those “everyday low prices”.

    How do they think those low prices are achieved!?! According to Wake-Up Wal-Mart, 70% of the commodities sold in Wal-Mart are made in China. (http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/)

    Could you imagine the uproar if the prices of all the Chinese-made goods at Wal-Mart increased, say even by a conservative 15%?

    The problem isn’t China. The problem isn’t MNCs. The problem is that consumers demand lower prices…

    China + cheap labor = Everyday Low Prices!

30. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    Yes Joe,

    I am pretty aware of the amazing progress China has made in terms of improving the lives of millions of it’s citizens. Like India, China is a huge, huge, place is very complex. Shanghai, is not Harbin. What’s going on near the Three Gorges Dam? How stable is it?

    I think it’s best to critisize the current government in three key areas which at least can be measured by objective standards.

    1) Is foreign policy. The current goverment’s beligerent threats against it’s peaceful neighbors like Taiwan and investment in weapons is an issue.Why do they feel the need for this investment given that relativly speaking they live in a fairly safe place in the world?

    Obviously, the weapons issue is connected to how willing we should be to exchange technology with them. China is a country we could come to blows with.

    2) Is basic human rights like — can people vote and are people allowed to speak and critisize the government and will they be arrested without trial etc…

    This issue is connected to trade since we have good reason to believe that a lot of the goods we are buying are made by prisoners.

    3) Is using generally accepted accounting standards etc… and allowing people access to the books of companies etc..

    4) Is just general rules of fair trade like the use of subsidies, etc..

    5 Is stealing techology, counterfeiting etc…

    I am not going to go into minimum wages, or any of the “worker protection” environmental stuff since a lot of that is much more dificult to measure and honestly a lot of the advocates of that stuff are trying to make the country less competitive.

    The weird thing to me is that both India and China should see a commonality of interest with the US in terms of wanting to expand access to markets, resources and live in a peaceful stable world. India seems to be seeing this but China’s actions show that it doesn’t see things like this.

31. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    China and Africa. Is there a common denominator?
    Let us see.

    Sudan, which now supplies 7 percent of China’s total OIL imports, has benefited from the largest Chinese investments. The China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) is the single largest shareholder (40 percent) in the Greater Nile Petroleum Operating Company, which controls Sudan’s OIL fields, and has invested $3 billion in refinery and pipeline con­struction in Sudan since 1999.

    In March 2004, Beijing extended a $2 billion loan to Angola in exchange for a contract to supply 10,000 barrels of crude OIL per day. Under the agreement, the loan will be heavily reinvested in infrastructure construction, with 70 percent of the loan funds going to Chinese companies and the remaining 30 percent going to local subcontractors.

    In July 2005, PetroChina concluded an $800 million deal with the Nigerian National Petro­leum Corporation to purchase 30,000 barrels of OIL per day for one year.

    In January 2006, China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC), after failing to acquire American-owned Unocal, purchased a 45 per­cent stake in a Nigerian offshore OIL and gas field for $2.27 billion and promised to invest an addi­tional $2.25 billion in field development.

    Gabon’s declining OIL industry also saw massive investment from China National Petrochemical Corporation (SINOPEC), which plans to explore Gabon’s onshore and offshore OIL reserves.

    South Africa and Zimbabwe remain Beijing’s major sources for platinum and iron ore.

    In 2004, there were more than a dozen exchange visits of high-level party and government officials between China and African countries. Most of the exchanges have centered on economic and energy cooperation. For instance:
    In February 2004, Chinese President Hu Jintao visited

    Algeria, Gabon, and Nigeria—the three African oil giants—

    to consolidate further the security of energy supplies.

    In June, Chinese Vice President Zeng Qinghong visited Tunisia, Togo, Benin, and South Africa, which have significant mineral reserves.

    Yup. There seems to be a common denominator: OIL.
    Followed by natural resources to be scooped up.

    It kind of reminds you of Japan expanding the Imperial Empire in late 1930’s and early 1940’s.
    We were able to stop that.
    We are unable to stop the same today.
    China already took the resources out of the USA and Mexico and Brazil among many. Next up? Africa.

    What does this mean to us?

    Our community college and all others need to beef up on Mandarin. We need the intelligence capability.

    Our own oil exploration needs accelerated and it might be time to support Kansius on splitting water,… or pursue other energy means.

    As far as candidates discussing all of the China issues, it is impossible to get elected by telling our people the truth. It would scare the daylights out of anyone who can read a fact statement. It would alarm the others and make hopelessness seem a viable alternative.

    China is referred here as a friend.
    We also have a sister city in Zibo.

    None of my friends walk off with my assets and place my future in peril to advance their own.
    Of my 8 sisters, not one has Ziboed me.

    Friends accelerate the future happiness of both sides.
    Sisters are forever.

    China is every bit as much an enemy to this country as any we had in the past. I wonder if Osama could be found in Chinese mountains? Anybody look? Afterall, what are friends for?

    And Steven, our politicians regularly take funding from the Chinese directly and indirectly. That is why they are silent. I wonder which candidate the Chinese will choose to run our country next?

32. Julio C. Reyes
    March 26th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    Danny,

    Let me try again,

    Please keep in mind that my original point was to somehow help everybody recognize the true value of things while trying to keep the original topic.

    1. Monetary policies. I am a cynic so I believe that given the circumstances every body will cheat. China, USA, the Martians, etc. The reason because Gold or any other standard (long lasting) commodity is needed around the world is to be sure everybody some how is counting the same and when breaking the rules it will be obvious.

    These days a lot of American assets within the USA are owned by people/corporations outside the USA. That is obviously a problem that had to be minimized.

    2. Public transportation major urban areas. I guess you some how agree with me. But I also want to mention that in the big urban areas parking is very expensive and it definitively adds to the cost of doing business/products. Parking a day runs about $30.00 plus taxes in Los Angeles. The American love for the car is just propaganda we do not have a choice we must have a car (with all of its implications) just to function. The bottom line is public transportation in the USA is terrible expensive and it must be improved.

    3. Utilities. Here I know I will get a lot of heat but my idea of utilities (at least Gas, Water and Electricity) is precisely to have them totally controlled, owned and run by the government. Elaborating more into the Enron scandal after the industry got deregulated the crooks took billions out of the consumers in California. If indeed the Chinese are buying American Utilities companies to operate in America, I guess we will be better of if those utilities are run by the government. Please see my next post for an alternative idea I had to handle the Gas supply in Erie. I sent it to the Erie times (Letter to the Editor) a couple of years ago.

    4. Attorneys – I have told my wife many times that if we ever split I will give her everything that we have rather than dealing with Attorneys (civil). A good friend of mine, Attorney in Mexico, told that it is better to have a bad agreement than a good fight because in a fight the only winners are always the attorneys. My software business is a niche and the few occasions I had to deal with attorneys they were helpful. However, it cost me about $25,000 attorney’s fees in 1994 – 1996 to be able to open Latinos Restaurant in Parade St. Does the Liquor Control Board ring the bell?

    5. The Military – I will definitively encourage you reading a book called Three Cups of Tea. Paper back edition costs $15.00. Please remember here my point is how to get things done better for the best price (true value of things). I have no interest in discussing any ideology, political or religious approach. If we spend money educating people both inside and outside of the USA it becomes cheaper to do business and people some how seems to live happier.

    6. Taxes and Regulations - It will take me a book to describe my approach about taxes and regulations. You briefly said the congress controls the purse. So as things are today they have absolute control they decide who wins and who loses depending on the situation and who screams the loudest. My point was more in regards to have the general public aware of the true cost of things.

    Couple of examples here:

    What is better for the little town and for me? Get a matching Grant from the Redevelopment Authority to fix one of my buildings facade 80%-20% where the cost (inflated for all their non sense) is $36,000. So, they pay $30,000 and I paid $6,000. Or I do the same job with the same contractor the same quality and I only pay $8,000 directly without the Grant. Keep in mind that now the Redevelopment is talking about 50%-50% projects.

    How is it possible that the unit in the community colleges in California costs $15.00 dollars so each college credit will be somewhere between $45.00- $60.00 and the people in Erie Community College are talking about an average cost of $3500. I guess is it taxes, is it regulations, utilities? I really do not know but it does not make sense to me. I have two daughters one already graduated and the other is shopping around (not for a community college in Erie or California) for next year.

    Going back to Attorneys (I represented my self in this case and it is still pending). Do you realize that the City of Erie according with their guidelines and regulations wanted me to put drainage in a five cars parking on Parade Street. When I asked them where do I connect to the storm drain and the cost of doing so? They said 70 feet away across Parade so the cost per linear foot was about $3,000. Needless to say that I called them all kind of names and my parking lot is not connected to the storm drain. Coincidentally now the city opened this last year a Rain Garden in City Hall that uses exactly the same concept I used 7 or 8 years ago in my parking lot. By the way the blue prints in the City were wrong if you could believe it.

    Please be aware that I do not oppose taxes or regulations it is only the abuses that people do not understand and hurts businesses that really alienate the hell out of me.

    My words - talking does not cost anything - is more in relationship to all the consumers that are always bitching and complaining about the Chinese unfair practice and quality but at the end they just go and buy at any place that offers the cheapest price regardless if the products are Chinese or not. All of them just TALK.

    Oops, I almost forgot the snow removal. I know people take it too personal but the fact of the matter is this. Every day when I am in Erie during the winter and there is snow falling I clean and sweep my business sidewalk go home happy and then the next day The City trucks dump all the snow from the street to the sidewalk again. It is just crazy. Why the hell the trucks rather than just pushing the snow around do not pick it up. It had to be a better way. In fact, I am planning to propose creating a Snow Removal Authority.

    Just as a disclaimer, I am from Mexican heritage so; I do not have any vested interest in defending the Chinese or anybody else. The point I wanted to make is let’s stop talking buy local products as much as possible and question our local governments about accountability and services.

    Going back to the topic, how do they expect to attract business (manufacturing) with their silly obsolete methods, incompetence, taxation and regulations. But more importantly consumers must understand those concepts when buying.

33. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    Dale
    #9 was the boo boo.
    #21 your clarification.
    #22 Morris’ rebuttal.

    I have found myself the new kid on the block in some other forums as Morris does here now. Many have an unwelcome committee self appointed. The blog owner is the sole authority on determining acceptable and unacceptable content.

    I have skipped over many of Morris’ comments. The reason is not relevant. I do not agree with your #9 and stated that above. #21 was not a settlement with Morris, or #22 would not be written in response.

    We are discussing countries unable to deal with a tiff and the resulting consequence of instability on the globe and detriment done to all parties.

    I find it ironic that the same is occurring with individuals and their differences within the framework of that thread.

    Let him who has ears to hear, hear.
    Let him who has eyes to read, see.
    Let him who has pen to write, communicate.
    Let him who has ownership of the blog, wave the baton when needed for harmony in the orchestra.
    Let commenters comment at will.

    Readers are NOT required to read.
    However, their future comments may appear disjointed.
    I ain’t upset Dale.
    I do wish I had posted the thought earlier.

    Given the issues being discussed, their lack of discussion elsewhere, and the synergy effect created at Global, we can go back to the objective originally stated.
    Fixin Erie a little bit better from within and from outside in a new and candid way.

    Let me also give a public “Thank You” to Jack Tirak for keeping Global writers alive on the Net.

    David Ambura is no longer available (even as an archive) to the detriment of this site. You can find Think Big Erie via Tirak and EMGR link. Sad way to have to do it.

    Stacy Pfarr apparently no loger has “We Still Love Erie” or whatever she loved. These folks belong in archive, not in erasure. They wrote. They were a part of the foundation and history. And, they are wiped out clean. If it can happen to them, it could happen to Dale or anybody.

    I have declared before:
    “Peter Panepento, widen this wall”, tho that was for the Seawolves needing encouragement.
    Now, it is for factual and historical publication.

34. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    Danny,

    I agree with you. China’s current actions remind one somewhat of pre war Japan! Both countries had a huge chip on their shoulder )and I am not saying that the west didn’t put it there). They felt that they had been exploited and their time had come and they were going to show everyone how great they are.

    The difference between then and now is that so many years have passed and I think the world also feels that China is great. Pre war Japan existed in a world in which free trade was almost non existent. Germany, Italy, Spain and The Soviet union were all agressivly building up weapons.

    This is not the world of today at all. A lot of progress has been made in the world and China’s scarry attitude is not justified at all. Any country that sees the Dali Lama as big problem is pretty nuts.

35. Julio C. Reyes
    March 26th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    Erie’s has an opportunity to solve two major problems and prosper.

    Problem one. Losing the brightest and youngest minds due to lack of good paying jobs.

    Problem two. A greedy out of State Corporation paying insulting salaries to executives and record profits to shareholders while at the same time is penalizing and overcharging local citizens, some of them hardly living above the poverty line.

    The opportunity/solution is to make a revolution/independence move to solve at least those two problems and possible even more.

    Before I give details about the solution I want to mention that this solution is not socialism or communism to the contrary is very American. Please remember the independence war to get rid of England and keep the money and taxes locally. It is also very capitalist in terms of using buying power; this technique is used everyday by corporation like Wal-Mart. buying in bulk and cheap and making a ton of money.

    Erie should create a for profit Co-op to purchase all the gas needed for local residents and business and then distribute it at a far better price than the out of state distributor (National Fuel Gas). The top graduates from local schools in different areas like business management, Information technology and Marketing to name a few, will run the company. Of course with good salaries, imagine how many talented young people you could hire with the yearly millions paid today to the big cheeses of NFG.

    To prevent any waste and the building of bureaucracy and guarantee that this solution will remain effective for the future we need to have as a minimum the following criteria: all employees will have a maximum of five years of service if good performance; any non performing employee should be immediately dismissed; no unions; no board members of any kind. No gas authority monster should ever be created.

    The only indicator of success will be no unreasonable rate increases. All the money left over after covering expenses should be immediately reimbursed to clients (business) and citizens, only a small fund will be saved for contingencies.

    Every client should pay for the gas they use. Multiple rates should be used and any non paying client should have their gas terminated under a reasonable period of time.

    Think about even the possibility of every Erie resident owning shares in this company. If you are a resident you could buy stock, if you move to Florida or somewhere else you are forced to sell your stock.

    Money to implement this solution might come immediately available by using the estimated bills non sense already used by NFG. I strongly believe that local investors and possible a local bank (if there are still any in Erie) will provide additional funding.

    Gas is a commodity needed every day with captive clients. By the way, I could go on an on about tax subsidies to pay for the infrastructure (pipes, meters, offices, etc) esoteric phantoms billings, reading errors, the PUC, why Erie is like a third world country. But I rather stop and encourage our leaders (leader means a person with vision, dreams and ideas) to think about this solution and have the guts to do something about it. Maybe we could start by forcing all authorities (water, housing, redevelopment, snow (just kidding)) and non profits depending on our taxes, and sometimes competing with private citizens and business, to purchase the gas from this new Co-op. wouldn’t be nice.

    Let’s make de-regulation work for the poor average American souls. For the wealthy guys living in Erie, start selling your NFG stock now and plan to buy shares in this new Co-op.

36. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    By the way, I don’t keep up with everything but I think that many Japanese are debating the expansion of their military or even becoming a nuclear state. They see both China and North Korea as a very real threat. This obviously would cause huge problems in the world.

37. Dale
    March 26th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    Golly Gee, Guys, I think I’ll just go back to my little hidey hole till the smoke clears. My apologies to John, or Danny, and anyone else I may have offended. That was most certainly not my intention. Mea Culpa.

38. Dale
    March 26th, 2008 at 7:12 pm

    Co-op sounds good, Julio. Count me in.

39. Tom
    March 26th, 2008 at 7:15 pm

    Peter,
    Are the job losses described in your post “net” losses?
    How is it determined that a job is lost due to NAFTA or the trade deficit with China?
    Government figures on the number of workers granted Trade Adjustment Assistance are not trustworthy since granting the extended benefits is often a political decision and not always based on an honest determination that workers lost their jobs due to foreign trade (politicians are quick to give away benefits to gain support from recipients).
    Quite a mob has gathered here to predict the eventual demise of our country…again.
    I’ve heard these predictions before. During the 80’s it was Japan. They were going to own us, I heard. They were too productive, some said.
    It didn’t happen, and today American workers out produce the Japanese.
    Then came the 90’s and the fear mongering focused on Mexico. Remember the giant sucking sound? Yet, since NAFTA manufacturing output has grown in America. So, if some claim a net manufacturing job loss since NAFTA, with increased output, it may be due to increased productivity. If the claim is net job loss in PA and not the US it must be state policies.
    Fortunately for Mexico and the fear mongers, China arrived just in time. The focus on trade deficits is a practice in futility.
    We have trade deficits because we consume more than we can produce because we are wealthy. The Great Depression created tremendous trade surpluses, since the consumers could not afford to purchase much beyond the barest necessities. Likewise, good economic times tend to produce trade deficits because we have the money to buy what we want. The trade imbalances naturally level out as the economy slows.
    The fact is we could not produce all of the goods we import with out massive inflation, since we have such low unemployment we lack the workforce to meet our demand for goods.
    I do believe we have economic problems (energy. Answer: drill and refine. Abandon ethanol as soon as possible), I do not believe the problem is too much freedom of the American people to freely choose the way we spend our money. That freedom is our greatest strength and efforts to restrict it weakens us overall.
    I know I’m running against the herd, but after 20 years of listening to the predictions of impending doom and gloom I am still waiting to see the proof.
    P.S. Danny, it has been nearly 30 years since the air traffic controllers were fired for ILLEGALLY going on strike. They made a calculation that a new president would not fire them for their illegal act and they lost. If the Erie firefighters walked off the job they would be fired as well. Give it a rest already.
    Leave the next 30 pages for Danny to go ballistic, then the rest of you can have at me. lol

40. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    Julio,

    “I couldn’t agree with you more about the gold standard. Have you every read the essay Alan Greenspan did on this?

    “In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

    This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists’ tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists’ antagonism toward the gold standard.”

    http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/greenspan.html

    To lay all my cards on the table– I am an Ayn Rand fan and so was Alan at one time.

41. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    Now Julio,
    Justamente por esso a mi no me gusta las albondigas!
    Aye carumba!

    * If everyone cheats, the USA had the sole access to nukes in 1945 and took over the globe as supreme ruler. You must have been in Mexico when we did that, eh?

    Some people cheat on their spouse; most are faithful.

    The gold standard was abandoned by the world, not just us. We cannot change that history and certainly have less influence to do so today than at any time since 1776.

    Foreign ownership of most USA assets is a function of lack of trust in the stability of the dollar. In lieu of gold, foreigners are sending their dollars we gave them for cheap goods, and investing them in our assets; raw materials, buildings, farms, corporations, our military, and our politicians as well.

    * I am an advocate of public transportation. I do so for personal objectives. I believe Erie, PA would be the number one benefactor in the world were we to approach sensible public transport. WE build the stuff and would have 10 times the workforce were the infrastructure changes made nationwide.

    Public transportation may need improved, but that observation has little to do with our international decline. Indeed, your $30 parking is underwritten by Erie taxpayers as you write it off as a business expense using our corrupt tax code legally to make ME pay your bill.
    Muchas gracias, Julio.

    * ALL utilities need regulation. The alternative is obscene profits at public expense. I strongly favor regulation for all of them and maybe a couple of critical industries too.
    Small tip: NEVER write to the Erie Times. Changing tax codes is easier than changing Cuneo.

    * Let me know when you and your wife ever split.
    Your asset giveaway makes your wife a most appealing
    person to know.
    Also, I would not use “friend” and “attorney” in the same
    sentence. It confuses the common man.

    I am considering writing a book on attornies. When complete, I expect that they will pay me more to NOT print it than I could make on publication.

    I was only called to jury duty once in my life.
    Gladys Scott, Jury Coordinator at Erie County Court (PA) could not have been nicer. We went into the historic courtroom number whatever…the one they always call “historic”. Sat for hours and had a preview that our duty was important. We were promised $9 for the day and not one Chinese was there.

    After lunch, we were hearded and eyeballed by the local staff as a herd of sheep must get. Read some more book.
    By 1:30 pm, they had exhausted A thru K and came up to “L” and called Lucas. I approached the room that swallowed people, never to see em again.

    Big long table. Attornies up the yin yang (in keeping with our Chinese flourish and topic here) bordered both sides of the table and an unsmiling judge at the other end. I sat down.

    The attorney with the cheap suit stood up.
    I was hoping to hear from the one who shops at Tom Karle, but he was on the other team and not allowed to stand up and show me Arturo’s handiwork at tailoring.
    That should be at LEAST a misdemeanor to NOT see Karle outfits in court.

    Cheap Suit: “Mr. Lucas, before we begin questions to you, I want to brief you on this particular case”.
    (He was flipping a #2 lead pencil AND talking at the same time. I was in awe.)
    “My client is suing his attorney. Before we proceed, do you have a problem with that?”

    Me: “No sir, I have no problem with that whatsoever!!!
    I am currently suing my own attorney and believe that everyone should sue theirs too.” (true)

    From the corner of my eyes, I watched a #2 pencil from another attorney get tossed high in the sky and waited in slow motion to see if it would impale the ceiling tile.
    (That could be an obstruction of justice or perhaps, willful discharge or a weapon, or even destruction of public property if it stuck deep enough).

    Simultaneously, a whole row of suits stood at once yelling “DISMISSED” and my career as a jury member was over. (wipes tear).

    I urge all voters to look in the yellow pages to see if there is an attorney near you that you can sue too.

    * By sheer coincidence, I like tea and i like reading, so I will get your book Julio. Three Cups of Tea (and me).

    * I wish to clarify the purse observation and Congress since you allude to it anew. This is a function of our Constitution that Congress gets a purse. In real life, lobbyists have the wallet in the purse and congress people themselves can be totally ignored.
    Get a lobbyist or a grant making person and you are on your way to the American Dream….humongous debt.

    * If you want to pay $8,000 instead of $6,000 to do a facade with the same contractor and same quality, and thereby forego $30,000 in tax monies and grants, I recind my offer regarding your wife (after divorce and asset compiling). Julio, the contractor is joshing you or maybe something got lost in the translation to Spanish (for the government worker). The payola and bribe factor is at least 3 times that amount. Hold out like a good citizen here.

    * Regarding our community college credit cost of $3,500 and Californigators paying $45 to $60 a credit, perhaps you have not factored in the Erie Parking Authority and the net cost of parking in the 4th largest city in PA.
    You thought $30 a day parking was high; wait til we develop a college here and show you numbers of magic.
    Feel free to write it off on YOUR taxes when the bill comes in. Attendance at Screw U will be costly for the student, parent, taxpayer, citizens, country, and immigrants, or citizens considering being born.
    The silver lining? We pay in dollars; totally worthless monopoly board money.

    * Drainage ditch expenditures should never be done.
    New Orleans would still exist if we had drainage done right….or hired some folks from the Netherlands, who know how to live below sea level for centuries without a hassle, to come over and fix our city up after Bush is gone to Texas. Maybe the drain could go to his ranch.
    I dunno. I am not an architect.

    * Snow removal is God’s job. He does it in Spring; sometimes Summer.

    Let me know when you come to town Julio. I am one of those danger living guys and actually drive on Parade street to see what will happen. My car is easy to spot. It has a row of attornies chasing it all the time. See ya.

42. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    Speaking of Lawyers, It might be time for one of the world’s worst dictators to start looking for council. Let us all hope for the end of Robert Mugabe’s horrific reign.

    Click here.

    Bad boy, Bad boy, What you gonna do when they come for you?

43. Joe Erie
    March 26th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    Danny Lucas Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    It kind of reminds you of Japan expanding the Imperial Empire in late 1930’s and early 1940’s.
    We were able to stop that.
    We are unable to stop the same today.
    China already took the resources out of the USA and Mexico and Brazil among many. Next up? Africa.

    What does this mean to us?

    Our community college and all others need to beef up on Mandarin. We need the intelligence capability.

    Our own oil exploration needs accelerated and it might be time to support Kansius on splitting water,… or pursue other energy means.

    As far as candidates discussing all of the China issues, it is impossible to get elected by telling our people the truth. It would scare the daylights out of anyone who can read a fact statement. It would alarm the others and make hopelessness seem a viable alternative.

    China is referred here as a friend.
    We also have a sister city in Zibo.

    None of my friends walk off with my assets and place my future in peril to advance their own.
    Of my 8 sisters, not one has Ziboed me.

    Friends accelerate the future happiness of both sides.
    Sisters are forever.

    China is every bit as much an enemy to this country as any we had in the past. I wonder if Osama could be found in Chinese mountains? Anybody look? Afterall, what are friends for?

    First off, it is no secret that China has been developing African nations for their own economic interests - mainly for long-term access to OIL. You’re telling us nothing novel here.

    The fear mongering you write here is amazing. This is the exact type of misguided thinking is music to the ears of the Pentagon and military-industrial complex… oh the profits to be made off of a replacement for the Soviet threat that defined our economy for decades! And it has been working, especially in the last 8 years when the US defense budget has jumped 50% (and that’s not including the additional Iraq war funding). We spend more in just R&D of the newest strategic fighter in one year than China spends on its entire military budget. The Pentagon has even admitted that 20 years from now, China may be spending HALF as much on their military as we were 4 years ago! Hmmmm… definitely not a military threat. As for an economic threat, only if they drown us in electronics, cars, and Wal-Mart commodities in the coming decades.

    To blatantly say, Danny, that China is as much an enemy as any we’ve had in the past is
    not only irresponsible and entirely false, but also fear-mongering at its finest.

44. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    I must say that I enjoyed this enlightenment from above:

    “The Great Depression created tremendous trade surpluses, since the consumers could not afford to purchase much beyond the barest necessities. Likewise, good economic times tend to produce trade deficits because we have the money to buy what we want. The trade imbalances naturally level out as the economy slows.”
    —Tom

    Our economy is slowing to snail. So our trade imbalances should level out, eh?

    More depression equals more trade surplus, eh?
    We will be on top of the pile any day at this rate.

    People have no money to buy anything but barest necessities (presumably food, shelter, clothes).
    This will create tremendous trade surplus.
    I guess homelessness growth may save us yet.

    Good times; we spend; trade deficits result. Woah!!

    What about bad times? Do we spend or save our way to prosperity? If everybody saves everything, are surpluses around the corner? I can’t believe I typed that?

    renminbi

    Smoot-Hawley

    Great Depression

    Robert J. Samuelson - The End of Free Trade - washingtonpost.com

    Google this stuff.

    My Degree in Economics and Business do not line up with your theories. In fact, none of your theories are a part of college study in any school.

    If you do Google any of the above stuff, you have to actually read it.

    Your opening two questions to Peter are both answered in the links Peter provided in his opening post.
    Of course, you have to hit the link and then actually read the stuff.

    Peter gave you the link for a reason.
    I think if you Twitter Peter, he is out on a date at the Outback Restaurant or somewhere, either spending or saving, so we get a trade surplus and he gets a Nobel Prize….(along with his barest necessity making the next Great Depression and other good times).

    Happy Easter Tom.

45. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    News Flash,

    Tata of India now owns Jaguar and Rover!!! Paid in Cash

    “Tata Motors has acquired Ford’s British marquees Jaguar and Land Rover for $2.30 billion in an all cash deal, sealing a deal that it pursued for nine months.

    Under the deal, Tata would continue to source engine from Ford, which would be paying about $600 million toward the pension liabilities of Jaguar-Land Rover employees.

    Commenting on the deal, Tata Sons chairman Ratan Tata said: “We are very pleased at the prospect of Jaguar and Land Rover being a significant part of our automotive business.”

    Click here.

46. Danny Lucas
    March 26th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    First off, it is no secret that China has been developing African nations for their own economic interests - mainly for long-term access to OIL. You’re telling us nothing novel here.
    —Joe Erie

    No, nothing novel. But also not told by YOU anywhere in your “China is our friend” revelation.

    Their hackers are in our Pentagon from the other side of the globe. News story from about 2 or 3 weeks ago, JE.
    All my friends do that. Don’t yours?

    Fear mongering?
    We just convicted a Benedict Arnold who sold out military secrets to China (read about a week ago).
    He is asking leniency in his 20 some year sentence after conviction. Says he is a “nice guy”.

    Do not read my post to declare fear mongering.
    Read the opening post by Panepento and the links he supplied. Either THEY are right, or you, Joe Erie.

    Sad to say, you can not both be right.
    Start at the top with this:
    “What has accounted for the most manufacturing job losses in Pennsylvania over the past 15 years?
    Hint: The answer isn’t NAFTA.
    The Alliance for American Manufacturing in Washington recently sent me some stats comparing the impact of NAFTA with the impact of illegal Chinese trade practices.”
    —Peter Panepento

    The Alliance for American manufacturing goes way beyond anything I have written and they have the audacity to back it up with facts.

    Say it isn’t so, Joe!

47. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

    News Flash,

    China practicing to beat the world at this years Olymics.

    Click here.

    And they have been training hard!!

48. Peter Panepento
    March 26th, 2008 at 10:34 pm

    Keep on going, guys. We’ll leave the lights on all night.

    BTW, I didn’t go to the Outback tonight. I worked late at my day job and had the company-catered dinner. Mmmm.

49. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    The French (cowards that they are) seem to think China will beat them to and might not show up.

    Click here.

50. Mike
    March 26th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

    Wow, I think this might be the longest thread in the history of Outside Erie.

    I also like Julio’s ideas in his previous posts. That’s the kind of thinking that is needed in Erie that is sorely lacking by our elected leaders- trying something different that will utilize that assets that we have in Erie.

    I also agree with him that public transportation needs to be improved. With the rising cost of automobiles and gasoline, public transportation may be the way to go in the future, and there is definitely a growing need for it now.

51. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    Um, If I said I agreed with him– people would say that was just a lesson from NY.

52. john morris
    March 26th, 2008 at 11:29 pm

    It seems like the other giant in the neighborhood is having second thoughts about the current regime in China.

    Click here.

    “Under the NDA regime in 2002, India explicitly compromised on the issue of Tibet when the then government signed a memorandum of understanding with China recognising the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) as part of the territory of China. Since then, China has continued its policy of systematically relocating Han Chinese into TAR and cracking down on the Tibetan culture. The present crisis is seen as another manifestation of the same policy. Experts say that restraint on India’s part has been mistaken for weakness. Last year, there were over 130 intrusions by the Chinese Army into India, including Sikkim, which Beijing recognises as Indian territory. They feel that the crisis presents an important opportunity for India to revive its Tibet card and not undermine it.”

    Restraint has been mistaken for weakness.

    Joe please explain why the peace Peoples Republic is making 130 border incursions into India.

53. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 12:59 am

    Here is a more detailed look at why both India and the world need to wonder about China’s actions and motivations.

    The story starts with the Invasion of Tibet long ago.

    “Fifty years ago, China invaded Tibet. What was the first task of the ‘Liberation’s Army’? ‘To defend the western borders’, Mao stated.

    On the ground, it meant building new roads leading to India (including the Aksai Chin road on Indian territory). The same roads were used 12 years later to invade India. The Chinese always plan years in advance.”

    So the invasion of Tibet was later followed by an assault on India. Why is China so interested and obsessed with this region– It really only makes when you look at it from a military perspective.

    But, I’m sure things have changed right- since that was Mao and these are our friends?

    Well, It doesn’t look like it since the Chinese are building or have completed a rail line into the region. What do they need that for- trade? Rail lines enable the quick transfer of large numbers of troops, supplies and weapons quickly and you can also use them to move around nuclear missles. I think it’s called stategic depth and just the kind of thing you might need in a major war with either the US or Japan. But the region also gives one the option of attacking India, Central Asia or even Russia.

    “Firepower could be directed to India in a much more effective manner using the railway to transfer missiles to launching silos hidden in the Himalayan region.

    In a China Brief of the Jamestown Institute a couple of years ago, William Triplett described some of the rail advantages for the tactical and strategic new potentialities of China defense program: ‘With this railroad in place the PLA will have excellent hiding places for its new rail-mobile ICBM, the DF-31A. If the PLA follows the Russian lead and rail-bases its ICBMs, each missile train could carry up to thirty nuclear warheads capable of destroying any strategic target in Japan and many in Western United States.”

    In the context of a power without China’s record this might seem like innocent moves towards self defence.

    But, If one is paranoid it gets worse sice the region is also the perfect basecamp for “unconventional warfare”, like terrorism?

    Qiao and Wang started their fascinating research with the US’s success against Saddam Hussein’s army during the Gulf War of 1990-1991. In fact, Unrestricted Warfare is a war manual detailing how a nation like China can face the technologically advanced US army, overcome this advantage and defeat the enemy.

    “The book came to the notice of the CIA after the September 11 attacks, because several times in Unrestricted Warfare China’s military planners suggest ways in which terrorists (bin Laden is specifically mentioned), could wage a new, unrestricted war against America.

    In their foreword, the editors of Unrestricted Warfare point out the authors’ ‘advocacy of a multitude of means, both military and particularly non-military, to strike at the United States during times of conflict.”

    http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/apr/19guest1.htm

54. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 1:12 am

    All of the major regional powers and players in Asia have reason to fear China’s long questionable history of threatning actions and it is the best reason to look at our trade relations more closely.

55. Jan
    March 27th, 2008 at 8:55 am

    Wow! Thanks all of you for the spirited discussion. I am going to research some of the information brought forth in this discussion so I can speak about these topics intelligently among my friends and family. Peter thanks again for providing a forum for such important topics.

56. Joe Erie
    March 27th, 2008 at 9:12 am

    Okay, first of all, Danny, in response to your post #46: take a look at post #25 and you will see that I mention oil and long term access to resources as the main motivation behind China’s African endeavors. So yeah, I did bring that up before you went on your OIL ramblings in post #31. But who cares who brought it up first… I was just saying that you were offering nothing novel with your ramblings.

    I have read the articles from the Alliance for American Manufacturing in the links Peter supplied above, and agree that America has lost way too many manufacturing jobs to China. But to only focus on China’s commodity dumping, unfair trade practices, etc. (these are practices US trade policies are famous for… we’ve been doing it forever), is to ignore the underlying issue - the disintegration of global supply chains.

    In the manufacturing sector, fabrication and assembly segments are now spread across the economies that have the lowest labor costs… enter China into these separated chains of manufacturing as the final assembler of thousands upon thousands of products. As a result, China has consolidated all of Asia’s trade surpluses with the US into it’s own with the US. So, our massive trade deficit with China is simply just the massive trade deficit we’ve always had with all of Asia.

    However, one must remember that AMERICAN CORPORATIONS CONTROL THE MAJORITY (nearly 70%) OF CHINA’S PRODUCTION FOR EXPORT. Basically, US corporations are renting the cheap labor and keeping most of the profit.

    Does this mean that “Charlie Sixpack” who works at “Erie Tool, Die, & Press” should have reason to sweat about the factory closing up shop and being out of a job? Absolutely. Should he blame China for it? No way, they are just occupying the niche that globalization (read: the USA) has carved for them. China has been strategically positioned to become our most powerful ally for a while now.

    To blindly blame China for manufacturing job losses in Pennsylvania is to be completely naive to the factors at play in the globalization of our economies.

57. Joe Erie
    March 27th, 2008 at 9:40 am

    Whether you understand it or not doesn’t matter, China is our friend.

58. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 10:15 am

    Joe says,

    “Does this mean that “Charlie Sixpack” who works at “Erie Tool, Die, & Press” should have reason to sweat about the factory closing up shop and being out of a job? Absolutely. Should he blame China for it? No way, they are just occupying the niche that globalization (read: the USA) has carved for them. China has been strategically positioned to become our most powerful ally for a while now.”

    I agree with a lot of what you said there Joe but the question still remains– why is China acting in this way?Are these the actions of a strategic ally? Why is China making agressive threats against it’s mostly peaceful neighbors? Why is does China continue to jerk the world’s largest Democracy’s chain? Why is it making military border inccursions into India?!!!! And why is it rushing to hug almost all the world’s remaining dictators.

59. Danny Lucas
    March 27th, 2008 at 10:44 am

    You have come a long way Joe Erie.

    From China is your friend, you actually now, took the time to read the links Peter published at the start of this thread. Goodie.

    And now you KNOW China cheats, but fail to point that out anew. What are friends for?

    Your assertion that China absorbed all of Asia/USA market like a sponge and consolidated that is magical thinking anew. They had the cheap labor all along. If cheap labor is the dominant variable as you shout over and over, then China would have been premier in the universe as economic superhouse centuries ago. What happened?

    Well one of two things.
    Joe Erie is wrong.
    OR
    China has been number one in economic strength for thousands of years but kept it a secret from the world.

    Nothing has changed in China. They still have the huge population and the problems that ensue from too many folks around. Indeed, they still remain Communist, tho they have a flair for adding capitalism with the Communist cheat sheet, formerly attributed to the likes of Stalin.

    Nope, labor supply has not changed.
    China has had and will have plenty of cheap labor.
    Government has not changed.
    So the JoeErie Theory is awry with the facts.

    Our dollar is about 14 cents in Chinese currency (well, yesterday anyway). Let’s make OUR dollar 14 cents and see if the world comes rushing through the door.
    _____________________________________________________

    “Live rates at 2008.03.27 15:33:20 UTC
    1.00 CNY = 0.142582 USD
    China Yuan Renminbi United States Dollars
    1 CNY = 0.142582 USD 1 USD = 7.01350 CNY ”
    ______________________________________________________

    But our people would rail against the politicians if we did this. For houses and savings and assets would be devalued far worse than Californi’s reported (this week)housing loss of one year…27%. California homes are losing value of $3,000 a WEEK right now with no end in sight. STILL, we are not low enough to compete with the phony yuan value.

    Monetary policy, Joe. THAT is the big difference from days of yore. Same labor supply over there; different monetary policy there and HERE. It is killing us.

    Second, taxation. NOT labor, taxation is a key component of corporate bye bye USA. Offshore headquarters allow our corporations to enjoy the security and stability that our governing system supplies….tax free. This is legal.

    Any of the little people can do the same. Just buy a house outside of USA jurisdiction, make tons of obscene wages (profit), and skip the April 15th deadline that your neighbors pay to make your life complete.

    I have not even mentioned health care, pollution laws, and myriad other factors of production that have largely been ignored by “our friend”, China.

    As more people read the links people gave, light bulbs will turn on in brains as truth sheds light to them.
    Joe Erie did it; Tom may be next.

    But those links fail to recognize the silver lining on the clouds above us. Does it get better or worse for the USA as time goes on?

    There are so many areas it is impossible to itemize, so let’s view two key components.

    One, the government of China.
    We all know what happened to the Soviet Union.
    The Communist system fails to reward individual action; it is all collective activity.
    People were starving in Russia as potatoes rotted in the ground (and those potatoes were not just food, but vodka). Still, they sat rotting as waste, instead of being harvested as goods. No reward for picking em up. You get the same if you stand there or bend over. Workers stood.
    Bribery helped, but mostly for the bosses at the top.
    The Soviet Union economically collapsed and became the Soviet Disunion.

    China has that governing system.
    True they are allowing capitalism….provided it is tightly controlled. that alone helps us. It is the equivalent of our government interfering with market forces via our taxation system. Both forms of government are competing to see who can get it more wrong, from differing angles.
    Meanwhile, the people under both systems are having a tough row to hoe…Chinese and us.
    Their governing system will keep them as screwed up as ours does to us. There’s hope!

    Two, the population.
    John Morris comes up with diddly links to everywhere and I often wonder what that is all about. The India link above is one of them. It lays there, but does not tell the story.
    Here’s the story (and I have not read the link).

    China has long recognized that they have too many folks within their borders and the numbers are growing exponentially. The government there did the impossible. They dictated that two can become one in marriage, but they can NOT reproduce two.
    One Child is all they can leave behind.

    In addition, men have a higher value than women in the Chinese culture, so if you can only have one, you make it male. For decades, births that result in females find that little girl flung into the Yangtze River….
    millions of em. The couple wants a son.

    They got one. Millions of them have their son. The ratio of male to female in China is ridiculous, but the policy to slow growth has been in place long enough that the yields are coming home to roost.

    The population is aging. Those folks are dropping off the planet and the rate of replacement is going down.
    Dating in China is tougher than Ashley Weber has in NYC, tho her odds would be better in China.
    Lotsa guys; few gals.

    In 2015, there comes a line of crossing from all this gruesome activity. China will no longer be the most populous country on Earth that year.

    Sidebar: this is why insurance is so profitable. You can accurately predict how many people are coming and going from the planet, just not which ones in particular yet).

    The most populous country in 2015 will be….India.
    John Morris darn near got it.

    Our tykes in grade school that SHOULD be our Social Security check (if the government would quit spending the damn trust fund) will be facing a labor pool of Indians as a primary source of competition. The bright side there is not government doing goofy things, but the cultural caste system fouling the possibility of genuine prosperity for all.

    I put China at about 1948 for the USA now.
    I put India at about 1848 for the USA now.
    We had the slave issue; India has a caste hassle enroute.

    What does any of this mean to Snap Tite workers or Lord Corporation welders?
    Well, for one thing, cheaper labor has always been around. The value of the USA worker is the relatively HIGHER education coupled with their relatively higher PRODUCTIVITY. Those have negated the cost of moving jobs offshore.

    The acceleration of adios America by our biggest corporations has to do with government policy
    (everywhere, not just ours). NAFTA clearly helped Texas and hurt Michigan and PA. The net of NAFTA is clearly destuction over prosperity for the USA on a macro level.

    Dollar devaluation is even worse. Our money is not worth the paper it is printed on. We are told that it is forever being recreated to prevent counterfeiting.
    Jefferson’s profile has him looking like he is on dope. The money looks and is atrocious. I believe the constant do-over has to do with the coming worthlessness of the dollar.
    Think Weimar Republic and carrying a wheelbarrel full of German marks to buy a loaf of bread. The money lost value each HOUR. The object became “get rid of it now while you can” in exchange for anything you could touch.

    NAFTA,
    worthless dollar (the Euro by comparison was $1.57 yesterday),
    taxation upon taxation (read your phone bill),
    payola to politicians via lobbyists (we are in a billion dollar presidential race!),
    real income massive declines,
    oil and energy inflation on the way (G.W.B. has limited time to help his oil friends so we will be $5 a gallon for about a year here, then a drop as the damaged economy nosedives while a few friends pocket the obscene dough).

    Next, we look at what we as individuals must do now to change our collective and individual future for the better BEFORE it is too late. (Hint: it ain’t voting).

60. Manufacture This » Blog Archive » “Manufacturing’s Biggest Enemy”
    March 27th, 2008 at 10:49 am

    […] Global Erie’ Peter Panpento wrote a great piece yesterday on the “impact of illegal Chinese trade practices” on Pennsylvania jobs.  […]

61. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Of course, now there are major calls in India now to look harder at it’s relations with China since thay involve a number of cross boarder claims by both nations and relate to India’s big headache– Kashmir.

    “Ironically, China, in welcoming the Indian approach during the recent uprising, has given legitimacy to India’s unofficial policy shift. The Chinese should be made aware that subtle shifts in India’s Tibet policy will continue, and that India will remove the ambiguities in its Tibet policy only under the following conditions: firstly, if the situation on the ground permits it (very unlikely if China persists with its present repressive policies); secondly, if there is a definitive settlement of the boundary issue; and, finally, only as a quid pro quo for China recognising all of Jammu & Kashmir as an integral part of India.

    It is time for India to get out of its defensive mindset and timid approach in dealing with China. There are vital national security interests at stake. Relations with China must be handled from a strategic, not a legalistic, perspective. The approach India follows should be multi-dimensional. India does want better relations with China, but it must also evolve a calculated and calibrated policy to put China under some pressure to safeguard its interests and concerns.”

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/mar/27guest.htm

62. Joe Erie
    March 27th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    Hey Danny,

    I read the links Peter supplied from the beginning and have not changed my position one bit. So fo you to say that I’ve come a long way is silly.

    To say that China has not consolidated Asia’s trade surpluses with the US is “magical thinking” on my part, simply ignores the facts. This is not my theory.

    Though I have not “shouted over and over” about China’s cheap labor, your suggestions that China would have been world superpower centuries ago due to this massive amount of cheap labor, only serves to illustrate how little you understande about China’s rather recent emergence into the global economy (China didn’t even register as a blip on the world economy’s radar until Nixon visited in the 1970s).

    Why not try reading and considering my above post so you can actually learn something, rather than continuing to ramble on and on and on in your flowery, incohesive prose.

    My last post is copied below; if you actually read it and read my previous posts, you will see that I have not changed my position one bit, even with reading the little links that have been posted. By the way, an American manufacturer’s association report on China is about as skewed and inaccurate as you can get if you are trying to determine the underlying reasons for our manufacturing losses.

    In the manufacturing sector, fabrication and assembly segments are now spread across the economies that have the lowest labor costs… enter China into these separated chains of manufacturing as the final assembler of thousands upon thousands of products. As a result, China has consolidated all of Asia’s trade surpluses with the US into it’s own with the US. So, our massive trade deficit with China is simply just the massive trade deficit we’ve always had with all of Asia.

    However, one must remember that AMERICAN CORPORATIONS CONTROL THE MAJORITY (nearly 70%) OF CHINA’S PRODUCTION FOR EXPORT. Basically, US corporations are renting the cheap labor and keeping most of the profit.

    Does this mean that “Charlie Sixpack” who works at “Erie Tool, Die, & Press” should have reason to sweat about the factory closing up shop and being out of a job? Absolutely. Should he blame China for it? No way, they are just occupying the niche that globalization (read: the USA) has carved for them. China has been strategically positioned to become our most powerful ally for a while now.

    To blindly blame China for manufacturing job losses in Pennsylvania is to be completely naive to the factors at play in the globalization of our economies.

63. Danny Lucas
    March 27th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    Rajiv Sikri

    He is the guy who wrote 2 of the 3 paragraphs in John Morris’ post #61.

    The link does not tell much more than the cut/paste job.

    What surprises me most in the post is a lack of analysis on what it all means to us.

    News is news.
    Like, GM laid off 3,000 people is a news story, for example. However, an analysis of that story would include maybe…local plastics firms expressed doubt at holding on to THEIR employees as a result of cancelled GM orders for plastic auto parts. GM laid off folks and Erie pays part of the price.

    I need to see more of that John. Otherwise, it is moving a news story from one page to another.

    For those of you who read, and take more time to digest, the above example on GM is an example only….NOT a true news story. GM is in far worse shape than that example profers.

64. Danny Lucas
    March 27th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    The jig is up.
    I have been outted.
    Joe Erie is correct.
    For me to say, he has come a long way is silly.

    You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can not fool Joe Erie.

    Like a Garden Party, I learned my lesson well.
    You can’t please everyone, so you

    continue to print the opinion that aligns with truth and pray the rest of society has better comprehension skills.

    Going back to Morris’ and India a moment, we in the USA have a history of picking the boob every time, when we take sides in a conflict we should stay away from.
    When the Soviets raided Afghanistan, they entered hell on Earth and began military expenditures that helped put them off the map less than 10 years later. War wrecks your economy. We helped the Afghans by inserting money and arms to defeat the Soviets (kind of an indirect stepping on their toes). We added the all powerful boycott of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow for upmanship. Sounds familiar today with China and the Olympics, eh?

    The guy we gave arms and money to, for maximum potential to inflict harm on the Soviets happened to be Osama Bin Laden. This gives new meaning to the phrase: “what goes around, comes around”

    In the India/China post by Morris, it would be wise to note that ALL of the players…..
    China, India, Pakistan, have nukes now….big ones.
    It would be reasonable to assume that when the Soviets collapsed and left no one guarding their military hardware, some of those suitcase nukes likely ended up in Afghanistan with a guy who had lotsa money (compliments Uncle Sam).

    The entire area grows more unstable and who can be sure that any given player has the restraint of previous presidents and Soviet chiefs to behave with the red button.

    We again, insert ourselves in the war on terror directly into the storm. Fighting in Afghanistan; begging Pakistan for a little help to find Osama, watching our economy undermined by Joe Erie’s friend, China, and outsourcing all of our IT to India.

    In Erie, it would be wise to learn about the city called Bangalore. You probably talk to folks there now when you call customer service anywhere here.

    For better or for worse, we are trying to align ourselves with China, India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan at the very time NONE of those folks want to align too close with any of the others.

    There is a dreadful silence on all of this in our election all the way back to Iowa. Previously, we elected a foreign policy novice. That was not so bad, if only we knew who he would depend on for advice in foreign affairs (besides the book “My Pet Goat”). Candidates need to be asked this directly and the media does not. If you get near enough to a candidate in the PA primary to ask a question, this would be an area worth asking. No one else will.

    How can we make an alliance with 4 separate countries that do not ally among themselves, yet are all intimately entwined in our foreign and economic policy future?

65. James A
    March 27th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    Holy cow, I turn around for one day and there’s 64 posts waiting!

    Lots of good stuff to digest in the posting, but I did want to mention one thing. Danny Lucas mentioned about the situation with China resembling the situation with prewar Japan in the 30s and 40s. There’s actually a fairly sizeable chunk of political theory that supports that conclusion - collectively, Power Transition theory and Long Cycle theory.

    The general idea is that the world economy moves in cycles of about 120 years. The cycle starts when a new, revolutionary technology is developed. This can be anything from boats that could sail into the wind, to the Industrial Revolution. When that technology is first developed, the country that houses it reaps enormous benefits. They get an advantage in several industries simultaneously. They can produce or transport goods vastly more efficiently than their competitors, so capital flows in from all over the world. They also tend to develop militarily. At the peak of the cycle, they’re the top dog in world affairs, because of the strength of their economy (and resultant strength of the military - they can afford lots of soldiers).

    The problem comes when the technology starts to spread. As more countries get the technology, the innovating state loses its edge. It’s no longer the only place to get the technology, so they stop getting so much capital. Eventually the edge disappears entirely. The problem is that by that time they’ve built the international system of power to benefit themselves - their military, their markets. Other rising Great Powers, who have adapted the technology, are dissatisfied with the situation. They want to be top dog. On the downturn of the cycle, we’ve had some of the most vicious wars in history. The last one standing is the new top dog. In the first and second world wars, Germany (and, to a lesser extent, Japan) was the rising power to the UK’s falling power. The United States was the last one standing and became the new top dog.

    (I should note that WWI/II are sticky points for Long Cycle Theorists - it didn’t match the 120-year cycle exactly, leading some theorists to speculate that the cycle had somehow been broken. Personally I think it has more to do with information - and therefore technology - being more easily transmitted in the modern world. I think the cycle has sped up).

    Anyway, under that theoretical framework, the US is the dominant power; with China, India, Japan, and Europe collectively as the other Great Powers. They’re Great Powers because of their military strength, population, and economy. India and China are both Rising powers, but of those two China is least satisfied with its place in the international system. Under the political theories I’ve mentioned, this seems to suggest that - unless something is different this time - China will have incentives to be an enemy of the US.

    I think that something might well be different this time: the fact that China is heavily invested in the United States. We do owe them quite a bit of money, certainly in the billions if not trillions of dollars. If they pick a fight, we simply won’t repay it. That’s a pretty powerful disincentive to conflict.

66. Danny Lucas
    March 27th, 2008 at 4:15 pm

    Good analysis til here:

    ” We do owe them quite a bit of money, certainly in the billions if not trillions of dollars. If they pick a fight, we simply won’t repay it. That’s a pretty powerful disincentive to conflict.”
    —-James A

    We have to learn from history James A.

    After WWI, Germany was the one to owe a lot of money. They could not repay (as opposed to refuse to repay).

    The Great Depression exacerbated the monetary scene worldwide (it was not a USA great depression, the world was affected).

    Of course, we then had WWII and many believe that it was the harsh reparations given to Germany post WWI that led to the rise of dictatorship ala Hitler.

    Make no mistake. China pretty much owns the USA debt. Given the horrible trade imbalance, there has been a governmental placating, by China absorbing our Bonds and allowing us to continue to spend like there is no tomorrow.

    Our bonds are losing value to the Chinese as the dollar goes south; hard assets have to look more and more appealing to them. We face utter economic destruction were they to call in for what we owe. We live with that scimtar over us daily.

    No matter how it is viewed, we are debtors to the Chinese now. Few expected the rise of Hitler. Hopelessness at the future gave his clarion call to supremacy a ring of false hope to his country. End result? World War.

    We have already picked a fight with China, pre-9/11.
    We flew a spy plane into their airspace. They were adamant that this challenge be met and knocked us out of the sky.

    As the “most powerful military on earth” (except when Vietnamese beat the hell out of us, but who is counting)
    you would think China would not dare blast us out of the sky above them. Well, they did! And, they kept the plane and hostages as long as they pleased. We were powerless to do anything.

    China was in charge in Korean War and in Vietnam and today in the War on Terror. Does anyone really believe that they do not favor Osama kicking in our economy?
    For a “cave dwelling guy” as G.W.B. called him, the guy is knocking us economically pretty good.

    I think your final sentence would be accurate with “If they pick a fight, they know dead people can’t repay….but a lot of real estate can be had for their ever growing population”. Keep in mind, Japan was after real estate and expansionism when they played world havoc.

    If you own the American breadbasket between the Rockies and the appalachians, you may want to take possession for yourself.
    Many believe we are in Iraq for essentially the same reason. Not terrorism, but raw material known as crude oil. Given what we now know, it ain’t unreasonable to think.

    Meanwhile, there is a lot of silence to this paragraph from above:

    “Next, we look at what we as individuals must do now to change our collective and individual future for the better BEFORE it is too late. (Hint: it ain’t voting).”

    and this one:

    “How can we make an alliance with 4 separate countries that do not ally among themselves, yet are all intimately entwined in our foreign and economic policy future?”

    Last, James A, I recall that 120 year cycle you mention and do not recall the name of the guy. It was popular in Reagan years big time. Was it Laffer? ? ?
    That sticks in my mind.

67. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

    James says,

    “Anyway, under that theoretical framework, the US is the dominant power; with China, India, Japan, and Europe collectively as the other Great Powers. They’re Great Powers because of their military strength, population, and economy. India and China are both Rising powers, but of those two China is least satisfied with its place in the international system. Under the political theories I’ve mentioned, this seems to suggest that - unless something is different this time - China will have incentives to be an enemy of the US.

    I think that something might well be different this time: the fact that China is heavily invested in the United States. We do owe them quite a bit of money, certainly in the billions if not trillions of dollars. If they pick a fight, we simply won’t repay it. That’s a pretty powerful disincentive to conflict.”

    These are excelent points we are in a period of rapid transition from a world dominated by old powers to new powers. This is also a world of rapid international capital flows and cross investment.Generally these trends are helping both China, India and also to a certai extent the west.

    So, the question remains– why is China the way it is. Shouldn’t it be happy with all the capital and jobs flowing into the country? Shouldn’t it see that it has common intersets with both the US, India and the Developed world in keeping world stability? You’d think we’d all be working together to hunt out Bin Laden and other parties that are really in conflict with us.

    But, for whatever reason, China isn’t acting like it sees it that way. The fact is that is acting it wants to be the world’s only top dog both militarily, politically and economically and it will do anything it takes to get into that position.

    This is a situation much more like Japan and pre war Germany than I want to think about.

68. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    Danny and many of other people on here have laid out the reason is acting the way it is. It holds the whip hand now. A lot of it’s capital surplus is invested in US government debt which we need to keep consuming the way we do.

    We have consumed the seed corn of investment capital we need to remain a world power and pretty soon we may not be.

69. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    Danny,

    I think you are refering to the Elliot Wave. Elliot himself refered a lot to the thinking of Konddratieff.

    http://www.kwaves.com/kond_overview.htm

70. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Danny,

    I hate to say this since we do agree a lot on here, but the fact that you don’t know who Arthur Laffer is doesn’t speak well to your knowledge of economics.

    Any idea of who

    Milton Freidman is?

    FA Hayek?

    Ludvig Von Mises?

    Hernando De Soto?

    Carl Menger?

71. Tom
    March 27th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    Wow, Danny, short response!
    We did have trade surpluses for every year of the Great Depression save one. The depression was made far worse by protectionist trade policies and the New Deal.
    The point on trade deficits is that there is no cause and effect relationship to economic conditions.
    There is another, more complicated, explanation for the fact that manufacturing is a shrinking percentage of our growing economy.
    The manufacturing sector, relative to the rest of our economy, achieves high levels of productivity.
    This means that manufactured goods, in real terms, get less expensive over time and fewer people are needed to produce the same number of units.
    The service sectors (education, health care etc.) have lower productivity and, over time, become an increasing percentage of our economic pie.
    This creates the illusion that these service sectors are becoming more expensive. But,in reality, consumers transfer the savings from reduced cost for manufactured goods to what they need or want from the service sectors.
    The focus should be on expanding the entire economic pie, across all sectors.
    I heard recently that the U.S. has the second highest corporate tax rates in the world (includes fed and state). This is like driving your car with a flat tire, it’s a drag on the economy.
    I read today that Senator Obama is considering doubling the capital gains tax rate. This is an increased tax on capital at the same time we face a credit crisis and a liquidity problem. Like anything else, if you increase taxes on capital, you will have less of it.
    We need to oppose government policies that are sold as punitive measures against some enemy or other (corporations, “the rich”), and support policies that promote economic growth, not government growth.
    China “enjoys” a healthy trade surplus with us, yet many Chinese live in abject poverty and the rest can’t imagine the economic freedom and luxury that we take for granted.

72. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

    News Flash,

    China is losing jobs in manufacturing!!

    I can’t believe that people don’t know that China itself is losing manufacturing jobs partly to other low cost countries but also because of automation and other productiviy improvements.

    Let’s just take Pittsburgh. Do people really think that if all of the mills formally in the region were open today that they would employ anything close to the same number of people? Many of these people would have been replaced by machines and other technological improvements.

73. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

    oops here’s the link.

    “The new report from The Conference Board, the global research and business membership network, is the result of a joint research project with The National Bureau of Statistics of China. The study is based on data for the 51,000 large and medium sized firms in China’s manufacturing, mining and the utilities industries. While the study focuses on the larger firms, according to McGuckin, “the same patterns are observed among smaller firms.”

    China is rapidly losing manufacturing jobs in the same industries where the U.S. and other major countries have seen jobs disappear, such as textiles. Matthew Spiegelman, Economist at The Conference Board and co-author of the study, notes: “The U.S. lost 202,000 textile jobs between 1995 and 2002, a tremendous decline by any measure. But China lost far more jobs in this sector –1.8 million. All told, 26 of China’s 38 major industries registered job losses between 1995 and 2002.”

74. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    OOPs– I’m fired.

    http://www.conference-board.org/utilities/pressDetail.cfm?press_ID=2432

75. Danny Lucas
    March 27th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

    Good point, John Morris.
    But the conclusion is based on faulty logic.

    I have been caretaker this week for a friend who had surgery. When they sleep, I have free moments. The above post was made at the library, and a time meter was closing the computer faster than I could recall the correct wave guy. I blinked.

    As a result, Alex Trebeck has already notified me that my appearance on Jeopardy is in jeopardy. I wrote off the top of my fragmented-disk-recollection-sector.

    Regardless of my knowledge, or lack thereof, on your list, you will find many who call my take on economics or any other topic sadly mistaken.

    Opinions vary only in quantity to the number of people walking the planet, so there is room for differences.

    When opinions vary in quality, it becomes time to evaluate who you are spending time with. To date, I am comfortable with all the locales I comment at….and the people I find there too.

    You can be sure that everything I have learned is in the cranium. I write primarily without a Google search, but need to reboot my head drive more often than in the past.
    Kondratieff was the wave I wanted to catch. Thanks.
    I “hung ten” on the wrong wave guy.

    I do note that you failed to list John Maynard Keynes.
    I won’t list another 5 that should be on the list.
    Long day.

76. Danny Lucas
    March 27th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Fair enough there Tom!
    I agree with everything you wrote except the following lines:

    The point on trade deficits is that there is no cause and effect relationship to economic conditions
    —Tom

    They are actually intimately related.
    When economic conditions falter, your exports go down. People get laid off for lack of production. Even if imports remained constant, your trade deficit worsens. More likely, with layoffs, people have less disposable income and buy fewer imports too.
    The reverse is true in good times, and relative to exports and imports.
    Economic conditions in China are such that real income is rising for their folks. But, like here, the government messes it up. The total population in China dilutes the growth as well. Ya gotta lift a lot of people higher there.

    This means that manufactured goods, in real terms, get less expensive over time
    —Tom
    You buy a car lately? A Maytag?
    Even in adjusted terms, real incomes are not keeping up with the cost of living. We are going backwards in real terms. Two people working today in one family make less and have less purchasing power in real terms (that is, after inflation adjustment). Our dollar is pathetic by any measure. That is a key variable in making our major dollar holders (like China) get itchy feet.

    The big worry worldwide now is deflation, not inflation.
    We can not give away our houses and people are walking out of their homes. Just walking away. Scary.

    The service sectors (education, health care etc.) have lower productivity
    —Tom
    There is no evidence anywhere to support this.
    4th grade students are running Macintosh and Microsoft with stunning results. (education)
    Robotics in Beijing allow doctors there to operate on a fellow in Boston. (health care)
    Wire a house or install a toilet and show me the productivity going lower.

    This creates the illusion that these service sectors are becoming more expensive
    —Tom
    Actually, they are becoming more expensive. It has nothing to do with productivity and everything to do with greed and the bottom line. It is not an illusion.

    Your dentist gets new glue and cheaper crowns to install in a mouth; the quality is up on both. The price of his service is way out of line for doing pretty much what was done years ago.

    Item two to back me up on price increase is one word: lawyers.

    But,in reality, consumers transfer the savings from reduced cost for manufactured goods to what they need or want from the service sectors.
    —Tom
    Any reduced cost in manufactured goods becomes stockholder benefits and dividends, not consumer savings. Consumers do not transfer “savings” as stated, for there are no “savings” to the end user. Nike shoes come to mind. They are made for a fraction of prior cost. Price a pair after they are made in a sweat shop.
    That would be “savings”? Nyet.

    I read today that Senator Obama is considering doubling the capital gains tax rate
    —Tom
    I only throw this line in because I do not know Obama’s take on this issue. I would hate to see the primary influenced one way or the other by possibly tainted information here. This refers only to the statement on Obama’s supposed intent. I have not read that; it may be true.

    BUT, everything you write about the consequences of that stance (if true, and if taken) is dead-on-balls accurate, to use an industry term…..
    “My Cousin Vinnie, Marisa Tomei speaker…..good flick.

    Thanks for being civil too, Tom.
    The discourse here rises accordingly.
    I doubt I have seen a thread like this on Global Erie, but it is refreshing to see people thrashing ideas instead of each other.

77. john morris
    March 27th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    Danny,

    I guess now might be a good time to paste in a link to a review of an exhibit of my artwork in Reason Magazine.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_8_34/ai_95541092

    All of the stated names are free market economists with most of them members of the Austrian School of Economics, a school which opposed and exposed flaws in the “thinking” of Keynes.

    The Austrian Economist Ludwig Von Mises also wrote a book in I think 1920 called Socialism which gave a detailed analysis of the problems the new Soviet state would have with their economy and why the system they advocated would never and could never work at least among human beings as we currently know them.

    The flaw they pointed out went far deeper than just the issue of incentives that most people think of. They stated that even a perfect group of people entirely motivated to be benevolent towards each other and do what was right for the community would still face the issue of figuring out what was right for everybody and how all the people and assets of a society could be best used to provide them.

    No time to go into detail, study, study, study.

    http://www.damelioterras.com/artist.html?id=19#

78. Erie BlogWatch
    March 27th, 2008 at 8:43 pm

    John (and others), you might be interested to learn that the definitive PBS TV series embodying Milton Friedman’s ideas (”Free to Choose”) as well as a more recent televised biographic exposition of his life story (”The Power of Choice”) and numerous other related programs were created, produced, and packaged by a team largely based in the Erie area.

    http://www.freetochoosemedia.org/
    http://www.freetochoosemedia.org/production/POC/index.php

    Now that is something of which to be proud !

79. Danny Lucas
    March 28th, 2008 at 12:16 am

    For John Morris

    A clarification is in order.
    When I have a few minutes in my day, I plug in a comment or two at a wide variety of unrelated venues. They are topics of interest and I find the discourse to generally be humorous, inspiring, and …well, I feel better for having been there as opposed to not being there.

    Commenting does that to you.

    In terms of your artwork link, you address me, but you need to know that this is NOT my blog. I simply comment or remain silent depending on topic.

    Your inclusion of your work, tho commendable, is the equivalent of spam and advertising, and for that reason, likely inappropriate. You need the blog owner permission prior to doing this. Check with Peter Panepento. His address/contact is at the top every day. Sarah Sampsel may give you insight as well. Both are open minded, but I think you cross the line, a tad, since your art work is off topic from job loss in PA and Erie and the ramifications of our election, and policy by many in government (at all levels including international).

    My economic studies were valuable at the time I studied, but I have learned more as a keen observer of real life than I did in college. To that end, I am not inclined to note the contrasting economists and was joshing you by throwing John Maynard Keynes into the fray here. It was nothing more than a subtle recognition of your own list that I had yet to address. My activity this week precludes that. And, my focus is and has been Erie.
    This forum was Inside Erie before it was Outside Erie, and even then, I commented on life HERE that people may miss by looking through other eyes.

    Many have tried to box my comments around politics, religion, and now economics. This is a mistake. There are too many areas of my life that have never been penned for anyone to say, I know that Lucas guy.

    Studying economists and their varying theories has no appeal to me.

    Changing my community has immense appeal to me.
    Everyone in town is an ambassador in carrying the town from what they found, adding themselves, and passing it forward to the next generation of citizens.

    I have scattered memories and parcels of my heart throughout the region, and wish it all the very best that life has to offer. I do not have the answers , but I do prefer to be a catalyst to inspire genuine dialog and understanding on any given local issue because you just never know which brain out there does possess the answer.

    Perhaps something I write will make them comfortable to speak the astonishing thoughts they, and only they, possess.

    As to the list of free market economists, I understood that and do not have the time to delve into each one’s theories. Additionally, the free market is dead. Greater understanding of the dead precludes my time in association with the living.

    Erie is a living and breathing community.
    Often when I am driving, I have to stop myself from pulling my car over and interviewing someone I see standing on the curb and getting their story heard.
    It happens anyway at checkout lines, walking the Peninsula trails, eating at restaurants, private parties and church, and places too wonderful for me to know.

    I like hearing the stories and the massive connections amongst our population. The current state of affairs has produced much private pain in our populace.

    This thread on China is not so much a scapegoat, but a general feeling of concern at our future, being placed into written form. I believe that it has set a new standard for Global Erie and fully expect that the sound byte comments and personal jabs that mark so many forums are largely missing in this thread. A new level of discourse has been reached.

    A sincere effort is underway to reach out and make Erie turn from caterpillar to cocoon to butterfly. That transformation takes time, but it is in process.

    Email Panepento and ask your personal links be removed, but the economists sited remain in #77. It is proper and perhaps you could guest post on the Art girl Rebecca Styn and her forum to reenter your link in an appropriate fashion and location. I wish you the best on that productive career.

    I encourage you to visit Erie and meet some folks at random. I have no doubt that whoever you choose will give you insight to a character that leads to destiny as they tell you where they have been (in this town) and what the future holds. The most remarkable stories of lives well lived are in a 60 mile radius of where I sit.

    After your visit, you will find your comments tempered with integrity born through interaction of simple people from a simple town called Erie, PA. You will never forget you came here.

    Last, I note a reemergence of Erie BlogWatch and wish to reaffirm that I have no association with that Blog, or better phrased, prior Blog. It is a source of personal attack on me, and significant mistruth. Private conversations have indicated a misunderstanding on me and that Blog. I have set the record straight privately and on at least one occasion, publicly.
    There has been a visciousness that I have never seen in any forum in my life, tho Topix is working on closing in.
    It remains important to me to publicly disassociate with ErieBlogWatch each time it reappears.

    This thread has been the antithesis of ErieBlogWatch and I hope that can be maintained and expanded.

    Here is where I stood and stand:
    “we (Erie) are the comeback kings of the world and anyone who misses it, misses out.!”

    In the manner of Forrest Gump, that’s all I have to say about that.

80. James A
    March 28th, 2008 at 8:41 am

    John Morris - “So, the question remains– why is China the way it is. Shouldn’t it be happy with all the capital and jobs flowing into the country? Shouldn’t it see that it has common intersets with both the US, India and the Developed world in keeping world stability? You’d think we’d all be working together to hunt out Bin Laden and other parties that are really in conflict with us.

    But, for whatever reason, China isn’t acting like it sees it that way. The fact is that is acting it wants to be the world’s only top dog both militarily, politically and economically and it will do anything it takes to get into that position.”

    It’s not just China, it’s all states. Germany should have seen that their place in the world as a rapidly industrializing power would benefit them, without the need for a series of destructive wars. Japan should have seen that too. But every state tries to be the biggest kid on the block, even the “good guys.” The UK did back when the sun never set on the British Empire. The US does now. I don’t think it’s something we should specifically fault China for doing.

    What I think we should be doing right now, is working with China to help it assume more responsibility - make it a more “satisfied” state. While it does have a larger population (and therefore a potentially larger economy) than we do, its government holds back development in several important ways. As long as challenging authority and problem-solving aren’t habits of theirs, China will never be an innovator. It will never meet the same percentage of its capacity as the US does. And it will certainly never house the same sort of revolutionary technology needed to create a new cycle of power. This benefits us, as long as we keep the conflicts economic rather than military. If China ever meets the same percentage of its capacity as we do, that will mean 1 billion Chinese are in a functioning democracy. I can live with that, even if we aren’t top dog anymore.

81. john morris
    March 28th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    Danny,

    I linked to a review of a show called, Drawings for the Austrian School and I think the review gives a little backround about Austrian economic thinking as well as how I got interested in it, which the kind of stuff many, many people have done on this blog. The idea that these links would lead to sales is very far out.

    “His interest in the world of business and economics
    arises, he tells me, from his interest in making and saving money. That caused him to do a lot of self-driven reading in market theory.” (I had a brutal education in the stock market)

    Anyway, if the link bother’s Peter - he is free to take it down without getting me to mad. I am personally always interested in knowing how people came to have the opinions and viewpoints they do.

82. Danny Lucas
    March 28th, 2008 at 10:57 am

    James A says

    “But every state tries to be the biggest kid on the block, even the “good guys.”

    One need only look to August 1945. The world lay in ruins and 2 separate nuclear bombs destroyed a good chunk of mankind. Harry Truman need only have stated to the world:
    “We are number one militarily. We can crush you totally unless you become a vassel state of the USA and supply us any of your raw materials we demand. The top dog has spoken and annihilation faces any who dare disobey.
    Any who steal the technology will be met with devastating destruction BEFORE you can join us at the top”

    Truman did not do that. He went a step further and rebuilt the two nations that had sought our destruction. Those two nations later made inroads into our economy as their new manufacturing centers made our outdated workplaces uncompetitive.

    When there is an exception to the statement, James, the statement is false. NOT every nation tries to be king. We have proven our intent long ago. Regrettably, our following leadership did not harness the common sense of Harry Truman.

    James A says:

    “What I think we should be doing right now, is working with China to help it assume more responsibility - make it a more “satisfied” state.”

    If we do that, we will have 2 nations on one side of the teeter-totter. China and the USA will look out for Chinese interests.

    I prefer that China take care of China and the USA begin to. big time, look out for USA interests.

83. Danny Lucas
    March 28th, 2008 at 11:14 am

    Hi John Morris,

    I think the art link SHOULD be included; I just think it should be included with the Art area of Rebecca Styn.

    When I viewed the link, it had a lot of “John Morris”.
    The process chosen to insert a self promotion reminds me of friends stopping by the house many years ago. We had not connected for many, many years. Enroute home from Pittsburgh, they chose to swing by. We had a marvelous gathering.

    They repested this the following two weeks as well.
    This was extraordinary and eye popping to me.

    Then, they told me that they had a wonderful opportunity in life and wanted to share it with us. They had joined Amway and had meetings in Pittsburgh each week. We could do Amway as a distributor for them!!

    Immediately, it called in to question, the true purpose of the original visit. Were you stopping to see a friend? Or, were you stopping to lay the groundwork for a future pitch? I never saw them again in my life.

    Taking advantage of a visitation can cost a lot more than what you could possibly gain.

    The self promotion link just struck me the same as my Amway caller “friends”. I would think you would want to be viewed as a valuable contributor of ideas, thoughts, and solutions to problems, concerns, and points of interest we all have in common.

    You have spent substantial time building that up.
    Maintaining a reputation is as hard as establishing one,
    maybe harder. The critics join forces over time.

    I was not pointing the comment out for Peter.
    If it was a vital concern, he would do what he sees.
    appropriate. The economic points are certainly a part of the thread. The John Morris Art Expo is not.

    Unlike Topix, or the USA Today comment section, there is a propensity toward respect, and cordiality, for the most part in this venue. My remarks are meant accordingly to a new and fresh writer in these parts. Your call.

84. john morris
    March 28th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    Danny,

    I think it is my call (and Peters) and I don’t think I crossed any resonable line.

    Sending the link to Rebecca is just crazy. Her section is called “The Art Of Erie” and as has been said by me many times– I have never been to Erie or showed my work there!!

    I think it’s just best to try to get closer to the topic at hand. To be very Honest, if I could never drum up much interest for the gallery i started in Pittsburgh (which by the way did not feature much of my own work)a city that is quite a bit bigger and home to major internationally known cultural institutions and art schools — what makes one think that I see Erie as worthy of my time??

85. Danny Lucas
    March 28th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Well John,
    The Art of Erie spoke of a Philharmonic Orchestra in Korea.
    The Blog is called GLOBAL Erie for a reason.

    You have judged the town without so much as stepping a foot in it.

    You query if Erie is worthy of your time , yet, spend enormous amounts of time talking to Erie-related folks.

    Rebecca is an under rated sector of Global Erie, for many people do not understand Art.
    Art makes the invisible in life….become visible.
    That is why art takes so many forms. Rebecca could use a mentor. John Morris could too. Mentor Erie, PA by joining forces with her.

    If you are an artist, the question is not whether Erie is worthy of your time, the question is whether your work is worthy of Erie’s review and inspection. Only one way to find out. Present it in an art forum and see what happens. That it is free to do so here, should make it an easier quest.

    I have not commented much at Rebecca’s room of Art….
    tho the “solitary rose” and the “music soothes the soul” drew my fingers to the keyboard…..only to delete it as unworthy. Perhaps I will go back since the place is vacated by artists, and open to the common man.
    Thanks for the advice.

    In keeping with the topic post, please note that tho this town and economy have suffered job loss, the heartbeat of Art in this community has neither high blood pressure or low. It skips a serendipity in every heart in town…
    daily.

    Many view it in a sunset.
    Others in the chirp of a bird.
    Some in the smell of grapes near harvest.
    More do so as they watch children at play or young couples gathered to walk and talk holding hands.
    The height of wet snow decorating every tree limb makes everyone pause to look at their favorite tree of all.
    (and most of us hate snow)

    Van Gogh died penniless and at his own hand.
    A solo painting by him today fetches $10,000,000.

    Sometimes, whether a job, a person to love, a community, or a way of life, the true value of what you already have may not be revealed within a lifetime.
    But one day, it WILL be revealed.

86. James A
    March 28th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    Danny - Actually, yes, the US try to set itself up to be the top dog in the years around and immediately following 1945. We didn’t do so in a “submit or die” sense, like the Germans would have done if they had won. That’s because we’re the “good guys.” But we did set up quite a few international organizations and agreements (NATO, the UN, the Bretton Woods agreement, the World Bank, the IMF, the Second Geneva Convention…) that directly and indirectly served the US’s interests. England made a similar attempt at fixing its place in the international system after the wars of the 19th century, with its web of international alliances. (Countered by Germany/Austria/etc, similar to the way the Warsaw Pact attempted to rival NATO).

    The fact that any nation - even our own - tries to look after its own interests, doesn’t say anything about the morality of that nation. Looking after their own interests is just what nations do. The morality comes in how far the nation is willing to go in pursuing those interests. America has, with a few very notable exceptions, an excellent record in that.

87. Danny Lucas
    March 28th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    Bretton Woods is an excellent example of international alliance for common good. It was not a source of the USA looking out for the USA. Significant currencies had been wiped out by war.

    Knowledge that the montary sector had dropped the ball with harsh reparations on Germany in WWI, led to the responsibility to not repeat that bad history after WWII.

    The gold standard that came out of Bretton Woods created an even playing field for all; it was hardly the USA making itself king. The only USA part was the location….New Hampshire.

    My refernce had to do with military might. We had it all. Numero Uno. No one could touch us or compete. The world was in cold ashes. The USA was in production mode and ready to swing from war production to consumer goods.

    As you allude the Germans (or Japanese for that matter) would hardly have ended the game the same as Truman did.

    THAT is the topic above in the growing concern over China.
    They possess the largest population (motive) and a system of government that is basically brutal when it needs to be.
    The hope…is that it does not “need to be” OUTSIDE of its’ borders.

    As far as “good guys” or morality, our history books do shade us in rosy colors and factor out the treatment of the American Indian and slavery significantly.

    I am not fond of the title “the greatest generation” for my eyes turn toward George Washington thumbing his nose at King George when I hear the phrase.
    Nor do I like the alphabet Gen X, Y, Z, AA, and the like.

    We are divided in political thought, wealth, healthcare, religion, and numerous venues. I see no reason to divide anew by generation. We need one another.

    The question remains….how will all of the current generations alive in this community and country carry our nation forward? Prior generations have ALL succeeded.
    They were Great!
    The jury is still out on all alive today in the fifty states today.

88. john morris
    March 28th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Danny,

    Top solo paintings by Van Gogh if they were availabe would sell for far more than 100 million dollars (perhaps 200 million). Actually, I’m not sure any painting by him at all would be priced that low.

    You are closer to the point when you talk about the fact that he died penniless and would hardly have been able to eat, let alone paint were it not for is brother Theo.

    I’m somewhat interested in Erie because it might be cheap.It’s also a safer place to discuss issues than NY, because it’s really close to being dangerously irrelevant.

89. Danny Lucas
    March 28th, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    John,
    I was off by one zero. You can see what a difference that makes in getting at the accurate truth.

    Your final sentence….
    the part after the comma, is also off the mark, by the equivalent of one zero for me.

    The actual painting I referred to was “Irises” and the story I read was a couple of decades ago.

    Van Gogh started out as a minister for Jesus Christ. He wanted to preach the Gospel to those most in need, the ones who could not make it to church, the poorest of the poor, coal miners. He went deep into the mines and preached the Truth about the Light of the World.

    But the people leading a hard luck life in darkness, just did not understand. They did not get it! They were trying to get enough money for the next meal and Van Gogh was telling them this is not our home, we are not made for this world.

    Their failure to grasp his preaching made him feel a failure. He did not just get upset, he went into the deepest of depressions. He ended up in an asylum in France.
    The depression was come and go and would one day lead to suicide (age 37 ??).

    One day, a nurse talked to him in bed and asked about opening the windows for fresh air as it was springtime.
    When the window opened, Van Gogh looked out on a field of irises. He made a painting of “Irises” and a mini recovery began. It did not sell. Depression again. He made more paintings including one of “Wheatfields”, and yet another of “Starry, Starry Nights”.

    Amazingly, what Vincent Van Gogh was unable to express in words to simple coal miners was easily glimpsed in his paintings. “Wheatfields” alone is symbolic of the Bread of Life and Communion with Christ. People have come to know Jesus through the magnificense of the work of the minister/painter, Vincent Van Gogh.

    The invisible became visible through Art.
    (Uh, I hope Rebecca Styn does not take offense to the post being over here).

    In the early 1970’s, a songwriter named Don McLean wrote a popular tune called “American Pie” ….
    bye, bye American Pie; drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry…. (off my memory bank there).

    McLean later wrote another song called
    “Starry, Starry Nights”. It was more commonly known as “Vincent”. The lyrics of that song are a haunting reminder and tribute to Vincent Van Gogh and his effort to preach….
    particularly this stanza:

    “Now I think I know what you tried to say to me,
    How you suffered for your sanity,
    How you tried to set them free.
    They would not listen, they’re not listening still.
    Perhaps they never will… ”

    Jesus says the Truth will set you free. Vincent tried to tell them the truth. It drove him insane that they would not listen. I cried the first time I heard the song.
    Here is the rest:

    Starry, starry night.
    Paint your palette blue and grey,
    Look out on a summer’s day,
    With eyes that know the darkness in my soul.
    Shadows on the hills,
    Sketch the trees and the daffodils,
    Catch the breeze and the winter chills,
    In colors on the snowy linen land.

    Now I understand what you tried to say to me,
    How you suffered for your sanity,
    How you tried to set them free.
    They would not listen, they did not know how.
    Perhaps they’ll listen now.

    Starry, starry night.
    Flaming flowers that brightly blaze,
    Swirling clouds in violet haze,
    Reflect in Vincent’s eyes of china blue.
    Colors changing hue, morning field of amber grain,
    Weathered faces lined in pain,
    Are soothed beneath the artist’s loving hand.

    Now I understand what you tried to say to me,
    How you suffered for your sanity,
    How you tried to set them free.
    They would not listen, they did not know how.
    Perhaps they’ll listen now.

    For they could not love you,
    But still your love was true.
    And when no hope was left in sight
    On that starry, starry night,
    You took your life, as lovers often do.
    But I could have told you, Vincent,
    This world was never meant for one
    As beautiful as you.

    Starry, starry night.
    Portraits hung in empty halls,
    Frameless head on nameless walls,
    With eyes that watch the world and can’t forget.
    Like the strangers that you’ve met,
    The ragged men in the ragged clothes,
    The silver thorn of bloody rose,
    Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow.

    Now I think I know what you tried to say to me,
    How you suffered for your sanity,
    How you tried to set them free.
    They would not listen, they’re not listening still.
    Perhaps they never will…

90. john morris
    March 28th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

    Danny,

    I’m not even sure what the latest sales figures prices are for a top Van Gogh because I don’t follow this that closely and because top Van Goghs just don’t come onto the Auction market at all anymore. Also, published auction records only show one a tiny slice of the art market. Most work is sold privately through dealers.

    I do know that a top Gustav Klimt sold for 136 million (spelling out so I don’t mis a zero) and I think Warhols have topped or are near 100 million (green car crash)

    Hopefully, you won’t go off on another tirade about this link about the legendary art collector Wynn Kramarsky who helped sell the Van Gogh’s portait of Dr Gachet. Wynn owns my work and I was in a touring show curated from his collection.

    “Fine Lines: From the Collection of Wynn Kramarksy, Santa Barbara Contemporary Arts Forum, California”

    “His passion for drawing has now lasted for more than 40 years. He recalls discovering as a child that drawings galleries were always empty and silent, and nothing could get between him and the art. His father, who was born in Hamburg and moved to Amsterdam in 1924, was a collector of Rembrandt, Cézanne and van Gogh.

    In fact, it was the Kramarsky family that sold van Gogh’s Dr. Gachet for $75 million in 1990. That made things easier for Werner Kramarsky, but he claims that it didn’t effect his collecting habits. When he started in the mid-’50, he said, it took him six months to pay the $175 purchase price of a Jasper Johns drawing.”

    http://www.artnet.com/magazine_pre2000/reviews/weidle/weidle4-5-99.asp

    Anyway, the point of this meandering departure from our topic is that I am just one of thousands of reasonably respected working artists who can no longer afford to live in NY. In fact, my last pad in NY was sublet from an artist who celebrated her 2004 Whitney Biennial debut with an eviction notice.

    Many of these working artists might love to live somewhere more affordable but feel stuck in and near a few major art centers for fear their careers will go south if they are not in the “scene”.

91. Julio C. Reyes
    March 28th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    Danny and John,

    Van Gogh’s Irises is part of the permanent collection of the Getty Museum in Los Angeles. The Museum did not want to disclose the purchasing price when they go it in 1990. The rumors say it was between 100 and 150 Millions. Everybody agreed at the end that it was much likely the second number.

    The Getty created outrage around the world way back then because it was determined at the time that no other institution around the world would have that kind of money to get art and compete with these guys.

    Anyway, I have seen it many times because I live only about 10 miles from the new Getty’s facilities, very nice museum with great collections, totally free. The Irises is a very impressive piece, it is currently covered with an especial protective glass to prevent any crazy fellow from damaging the piece. I guess it might be required by the insurance company.

    As you also know, Van Gogh, cut his ear and kill himself. There are at least 20 or more different diagnostics about his mental illness from epilepsy to dementia and schizophrenia, bipolar and everything in between. Of course he also drank a lot.

    He was never lucky with women; I know a few details because I read some of the “published” Letters to Theo. This letters if they were accurately translated definitively show a tormented soul.

    Anyway, as I said I live very close to the Getty so, if someone wants to visit it you could spend sometime in my home visiting me and my family of course when I am in Los Angeles not in Erie.

92. Danny Lucas
    April 6th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    China is your friend. Well, see the news of 4/5/8.
    Some here actually believe that.
    Read on:
    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VRT19G0&show_article=1

    Do your friends steal, counterfeit, espionage, fake money with you? Then, you need new friends.

    Otherwise, post away that “China is our friend”.

    The evidence was in long ago.
    ____________________________________________________

    Julio, “Irises” and LA…..one of these days for sure.

93. Danny Lucas
    April 6th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    Gao Xiqing is top dog at China’s Sovereign Wealth Fund, a topic on 60 Minutes, Sunday 4/6/8.

    His last name is pronounced “ka-ching”.
    He has $200 billion to invest in our misfortunes that make up our economy. By contrast Kuwait bought $7.5 billion of our mess; tho we can trust them a lot more.

    The credit and subprime mess is just one. China has a money surplus to buy companies and it grows $1 billion a DAY.

    Gao says that anyone who understands capital investment would not be alarmed in the uSA at China’s deeds of buying us lock, stock, and barrel. Lesley Stall interviews an economist who just happens to understand capital markets and investments. He says :We don’t trust you, China, with messing around with our economy because of your past behavior with counterfeits, espionage, unfair labor and trade practices, and military tactics.

    To learn more about why it is folly to believe China is our friend, see 60 Minutes in detail or the summary here:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/04/60minutes/main3993933.shtml?source=RSSattr=World_3993933